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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

Basic give way rules.

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Created by busterwa > 9 months ago, 27 Dec 2011
FlickySpinny
WA, 657 posts
29 Dec 2011 4:15AM
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busterwa said...


Jibing seems to be another problem where people down wind to not give way.


When Jibing / Gybing / tacking / vulcaning / ponching / flakaing, under any normal circumstances, the vessel performing the manouever is under an obligation to keep clear of EVERYONE no matter what tack or point of sail they are on.

kiteboy dave
QLD, 6525 posts
29 Dec 2011 9:58AM
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A kitesurfer is almost always downwind therefore windsurfers should give way at all times.

Gorgo
VIC, 5127 posts
29 Dec 2011 11:24AM
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FlickySpinny said...

busterwa said...


Jibing seems to be another problem where people down wind to not give way.


When Jibing / Gybing / tacking / vulcaning / ponching / flakaing, under any normal circumstances, the vessel performing the manouever is under an obligation to keep clear of EVERYONE no matter what tack or point of sail they are on.




While that is correct in principle, it leads to a situation where tailgating is common.

There's nothing worse than riding towards a beach and some numpty sits right on your tail apparently expecting you to ride up onto the sand or crash into the shallows. It's even wprse when they sit behind and slightly downwind blocking your exit from a gybe.

Similarly, on the way out there's all these beautiful waves waiting to be turned on but boofhead wants to sit on your clacker.

Gorgo
VIC, 5127 posts
29 Dec 2011 11:28AM
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kiteboy dave said...

A kitesurfer is almost always downwind therefore windsurfers should give way at all times.
...




That's just wrong. Nobody is inherently up/downwind of anybody. A kiteboard can easily edge itself into a position of upwind superiority and claim the right of way. You just end up balking the sailboard and causing grief.

That's just as bad as sailboards blasting at speed through the pack with no thought of the other craft they are passing.

kiteboy dave
QLD, 6525 posts
29 Dec 2011 12:38PM
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This is where the situation gets tricky

GreenPat
QLD, 4107 posts
29 Dec 2011 12:41PM
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Port, starboard, or Up?

Speaking of Pelican Point, I remember kiting there once where I had a windsurfer on my tail, another one coming at me head on, and it wasn't clear who was quite upwind of who. I decided to let the windsurfers work it out and just boosted a couple of mast heights out of the way vertically...

Mark _australia
WA, 23717 posts
29 Dec 2011 11:36AM
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kiteboy dave said...

This is where the situation gets tricky




Not tricky at all Dave. Upwind / downwind has no relevance in the pics you posted. Port tack gives way to starboard tack.

pierrec45
NSW, 2005 posts
29 Dec 2011 3:07PM
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upwind and downwind has nothing to do with it for 2 crafts sailing on opposite tacks - can't believe it's even brought up. surely this was in jest ????

a lawyer at my (yacht) club was saying the ROW rules would be used should a collision get to court, outside of a regatta situation.

lotofwind
NSW, 6451 posts
29 Dec 2011 6:52PM
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GreenPat said...

Port, starboard, or Up?

Speaking of Pelican Point, I remember kiting there once where I had a windsurfer on my tail, another one coming at me head on, and it wasn't clear who was quite upwind of who. I decided to let the windsurfers work it out and just boosted a couple of mast heights out of the way vertically...


Did you get a good view of the collision from up there.

FlickySpinny
WA, 657 posts
29 Dec 2011 5:37PM
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Gorgo said...

FlickySpinny said...

busterwa said...


Jibing seems to be another problem where people down wind to not give way.


When Jibing / Gybing / tacking / vulcaning / ponching / flakaing, under any normal circumstances, the vessel performing the manouever is under an obligation to keep clear of EVERYONE no matter what tack or point of sail they are on.




While that is correct in principle, it leads to a situation where tailgating is common.



So let me get this right... (and I've read your post very carefully several times)

The action of keeping clear of other sailors when going into a manouever leads to people "tail gating" you?

Ergo:

Doing manouevers in front of people teaches them not to sail behind you and to keep clear of you. And that is a good thing.

Do you need me to point out how anti-social that is and exactly how it contravenes the RoW rules?


Gorgo said...
It's even wprse when they sit behind and slightly downwind blocking your exit from a gybe.


Learn to tack.

Chris_M
2132 posts
29 Dec 2011 5:50PM
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Chris_M said...

1, 1, 1



Whoops my mistake, I meant 2, 2, 2, brain not functioning properly at 6am

Gorgo
VIC, 5127 posts
29 Dec 2011 9:37PM
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FlickySpinny said...
...
So let me get this right... (and I've read your post very carefully several times)

The action of keeping clear of other sailors when going into a manouever leads to people "tail gating" you?

Ergo:

Doing manouevers in front of people teaches them not to sail behind you and to keep clear of you. And that is a good thing.

Do you need me to point out how anti-social that is and exactly how it contravenes the RoW rules?

...


No. You're being deliberately obtuse to make a political point. You're taking the extreme position and trying to make out that I am too. I never said any of the things you said.

Forcing anybody else on the water into a position is unacceptable no matter what the rules are. Forcing your right of way, pushing people upwind or down wind or whatever, sitting behind people and blocking their exits. All wrong.

kiteboy dave
QLD, 6525 posts
29 Dec 2011 11:12PM
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Mark _australia said...
Not tricky at all Dave. Upwind / downwind has no relevance in the pics you posted. Port tack gives way to starboard tack.


Hmm maybe I'm not as funny as I think I am. Try stepping back and looking at the problem. I mean literally step back a few paces from the monitor and look at my pic.

Point I was taking the long way around to making is that I am from a sailing background, I get it. But talking about port and starboard tack around most kiters is like saying it round wakeboarders or snowboarders. Doesn't mean anything and it's too hard, so not interested.

We need a simple slogan that works for kiters, like 'right foot first is right of way' or something.

saltiest1
NSW, 2575 posts
30 Dec 2011 12:13AM
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Mark _australia said...

kiteboy dave said...

This is where the situation gets tricky




Not tricky at all Dave. Upwind / downwind has no relevance in the pics you posted. Port tack gives way to starboard tack.






i thought each vessel is to turn to port to avoid collision.

SandS
VIC, 5904 posts
30 Dec 2011 12:30AM
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Seems to be dragging on this one.

When the wind comes in from your port side , you have no rights . You must give way

Good night

nebbian
WA, 6277 posts
29 Dec 2011 9:51PM
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saltiest1 said...

i thought each vessel is to turn to port to avoid collision.


Y'see there's the problem right there.

We're supposed to turn right (starboard) to avoid a collision. But as this thread (and many other that have gone before) shows, there's absolutely no guarantee that even if you know the rules, that the other guy will.

And you might be convinced of the rules, and scream them at the top of your lungs, but somehow get them completely backwards.

Cripes, we don't have a big thick rulebook for walking along the footpath do we? But yet even without all sorts of strange nautical terms people seem to be able to avoid bumping into other people quite easily.

So the only rational way to avoid collisions is to... avoid collisions! Use common sense. If you're on a collision course, then make an obvious change of direction so that then you're not on a collision course.
This works just about all the time, as opposed to the 'proper' nautical rules which will work around half the time when you take the inexperience of the other guy into account.

pierrec45
NSW, 2005 posts
30 Dec 2011 3:29AM
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Common sense won't work, and the analogy of people walking the street don't apply either. (with due respect, etc.)

For instance there are a lot of people out there that haven't been taught the basic rules (obviously from this thread and many others). Many think that the water is for them, and others will move out of the way, regardless of tacks.

My sailboat weighs 3 tons, and it's a small one. It don't turn nor stops just like that.
A windsurfer goes 20-25 km/h very min. in strong winds, and in crowded waterways with unpredictable people who refuse to obey courtesy rules, then you have to make a choice: keep the upwind when SB, & prepare for the worst - a last minute change. Or yield all the time and reinforce the message that they are the center of the universe indeed.

BennyB12
QLD, 918 posts
30 Dec 2011 9:55AM
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We need a simple slogan that works for kiters, like 'right foot first is right of way' or something.



Perfect. cruising in heelside, left foot forward, quick switch now toeside rightfoot forward and everyone get out of the way!

Im a kiter, not a sailor. I ride my kiteboard, not sail my boat. I can see how the sailing rules would apply to the poleys but thats just another restriction that the place themselves under by choice.

Dear poleys,
I shall lift my kite a little higher if it means you can pass safely but that is all you will ever get. Now go back to your sailing club and tell the commodore i said Hi.
In jest,
B12.

slainte
QLD, 2246 posts
30 Dec 2011 10:42AM
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nebbian said...






So the only rational way to avoid collisions is to... avoid collisions! Use common sense.


When all else fails Nebbian has hit the nail on the head. Sail has ROW over stinkies (recreational) at all times. In Moreton bay the bigger stinkie owners run on auto pilot some of the time. If they're not watching are you gunna keep your course or avoid the collision. Safety is the main focus on ROW rules all of the time, don,t for 1 minute think that because you have ROW that you shouldn,t have to manouver to avoid a collision.

Mark _australia
WA, 23717 posts
30 Dec 2011 9:11AM
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kiteboy dave said...

Mark _australia said...
Not tricky at all Dave. Upwind / downwind has no relevance in the pics you posted. Port tack gives way to starboard tack.


Hmm maybe I'm not as funny as I think I am. Try stepping back and looking at the problem. I mean literally step back a few paces from the monitor and look at my pic.

Point I was taking the long way around to making is that I am from a sailing background, I get it. But talking about port and starboard tack around most kiters is like saying it round wakeboarders or snowboarders. Doesn't mean anything and it's too hard, so not interested.

We need a simple slogan that works for kiters, like 'right foot first is right of way' or something.



I really really hope that is not the case - that kiters don't care cos it is too hard.
It is a pizza P1ss to know that the wind is coming from the left side or right side of your board, regardless of switch stance stuff.

tightlines
WA, 3510 posts
30 Dec 2011 11:13AM
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Right hand forward has right of way.

kiteboy dave
QLD, 6525 posts
31 Dec 2011 8:18AM
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tightlines said...

Right hand forward has right of way.


Right hand heelside has right of way?

About it being too hard: remember that to a non-sailor you have to start at the beginning. What is a tack. What is port & starboard. Why not say right & left? What is upwind / downwind / leeward / etc. (I'm not kidding, to some kiters upwind is getting back further up the beach than where you started). So you teach them all these terms, great. 6 months later, never used, all gone.

saltiest1
NSW, 2575 posts
31 Dec 2011 12:34PM
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my bad shoulda said pass to port. its the same rule for sailing as skydiving.

Mark _australia
WA, 23717 posts
31 Dec 2011 9:51AM
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kiteboy dave said...

tightlines said...

Right hand forward has right of way.


Right hand heelside has right of way?

About it being too hard: remember that to a non-sailor you have to start at the beginning. What is a tack. What is port & starboard. Why not say right & left? What is upwind / downwind / leeward / etc. (I'm not kidding, to some kiters upwind is getting back further up the beach than where you started). So you teach them all these terms, great. 6 months later, never used, all gone.



Like I said, for beginners forget switch stance, heel/toeside, which hand forward etc etc.
"If the wind is coming from the right hand side of the board then you have right of way."
Anyone who is learning to kite or windsurf or sail who cannot learn THAT should not be going on the water.

Subsonic
WA, 3427 posts
31 Dec 2011 10:37AM
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kiteboy dave said...

tightlines said...

Right hand forward has right of way.


Right hand heelside has right of way?

About it being too hard: remember that to a non-sailor you have to start at the beginning. What is a tack. What is port & starboard. Why not say right & left? What is upwind / downwind / leeward / etc. (I'm not kidding, to some kiters upwind is getting back further up the beach than where you started). So you teach them all these terms, great. 6 months later, never used, all gone.



Knowing the basics of the Collision regs isnt about making it hard for beginners, its about everyone playing safe and happy. They're pretty basic, the ones that we need to know out windsurfing/teabagging, port/starboard, upwind/downwind are the only ones I can think of that really affect us. Every one else on the water has to show some basic understanding of them no matter what they're on.

As to beginners remembering the terms and what they mean, if its easier, use right and left. upwind/downwind is easy enough to teach/remember I would have thought, just need some intial instruction on what it can mean.

I've yet to see one of you clever teabaggers riding a twintip facing backwards longterm. When you're facing forwards in the direction of travel if the wind is coming from the left you're on port, wind coming from the right you're on starboard, regardless of the fact you may be riding heelside on a twintip.

Subsonic
WA, 3427 posts
31 Dec 2011 10:47AM
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What Nebs said too, use common sense when youre out there and take the initiative to avoid a collision if you see one coming rather than relying on others, pick your path early and play nice, I haven't met a person yet that collided with another on purpose out there

saltiest1
NSW, 2575 posts
31 Dec 2011 2:00PM
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etiquitte helps.

highnoon
VIC, 602 posts
31 Dec 2011 3:29PM
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Far as I know, The largest vessel has right of way,
Just get a bigger board,

pierrec45
NSW, 2005 posts
31 Dec 2011 3:51PM
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kiteboy dave said...

tightlines said...

Right hand forward has right of way.

About it being too hard: remember that to a non-sailor you have to start at the beginning. What is a tack. What is port & starboard. Why not say right & left? What is upwind / downwind / leeward / etc.

A non-sailor has to learn all safety aspects. The above is not very difficult to learn, plus currents, waves, emergencies such as breaking equipment, etc. Apparently judging from the well-publicized accidents, they have to learn to unhook too.

Else said non-sailor is not starting at the right place or got the wrong advice. I know some kids borrow daddy's car without taking lessons nor insurance, but not the safe way to do it.

Gorgo
VIC, 5127 posts
1 Jan 2012 12:36AM
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It's easy. Turn right and/or f%$# off.



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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...


"Basic give way rules." started by busterwa