Most of us either did an apprentaship , went to university or Tafe after we left school. Due to the lack of apprentaships over the last 15-20 years we are now in a position where alot of the "Baby boomers" are retiring and leaving the workforce short of skilled labour.
Reducing the duration of apprentaships is not the answer I think.
Yeh competency based results are credible but the most important thing you gain from a full "old school" apprentaship is experience and common sense. You cant get that in a 2.5 year training agreement.
With the way our "killer kids" are today , the majority of them couldnt care less weither they pass or fail , mostly interested in a quick $$$.
So what is the answer???
Engineering trades are underpaid for a start. Why would you do an apprentaship if all you have to do is clean up ur drug habbit for a few weeks to get a job on a minesite earning $100k+PA???
Discuss
i think the government should dangle a bigger carrot in front of business to lure more young apprentices.
i earnt under 150 bucks a week during my first year now im up there with doctors and lawyers.
dont get me wrong we/i are highly skilled and keep mulit million dollar production lines running.
Long term the advantages of being skilled is that you will not be the first to be laid off when the cycle pendulum bottoms out.
I joined the Navy in mid 1966 as an N.A.A. (Naval Artificer Apprentice). The Navy would intake about 120 youths (sorry, blokes only back then) from all over Australia after a fairly rigorous selection process every 6 months.
At my intake's 35 year reunion in 2001, one of our former academic instructors told us that the selection process ensured that all of the selectees were capable of achieving a Bachelor of Arts Degree or better.
R.A.N.A.T.E. (Royal Australian Navy Apprentice Training Establishment) H.M.A.S Nirimba was located at Quaker's Hill about 15 klms along the Windsor train line, north west of Blacktown, Sydney, N.S.W.
All of us were signed up for 12 years which consisted of three and a half years apprentice school, one and a half years on the job training and seven years of journeyman's service.
The trades taught at the school were:-
Fitting and Machining, combined with Marine Engineering branching into Steam or Diesel technology.
Shipwrighting which was integrated with Boilermaking and Welding.
Electrical Fitter Mechanics.
Electronics which branched into Weapons Electrical and Communications Electrical.
Aircraft Engine Fitting and Air Frame Fitting.
Military Discipline including parade ground drill, firearms handling, maintenance and use.
Remote Area Expedition and Survival Techniques.
Fire Fighting and Damage Control Methodology.
Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Defence Strategy and Practices.
I might have missed one or two but the last four were required for all trainees regardless of which technical discipline they entered.
For the first 6 months of the apprenticeship all trainees recieved the same training. This was half classroom academics continueing from our high school subjects of Maths, English and Science plus the basic hand fitting course.
The first excercise of the hand fitting course was that we each made our external and internal calipers. I still have and use my calipers that I made and learnt to use 44 years ago.
These calipers have no graduations on them. They are knock and tap calipers which combined with the feel in your fingers and a gauge will give you a measurement with a + or - .002" accuracy. I am quite prepared to trust my life on these calipers and my ability to use them.
I don't believe this kind of "hand, eye, brain co-ordination" is taught today.
Does this have any relevance in today's world? Who is to say? It still works for me and I have proven it to be just as accurate as the digital instruments currently used.
The R.A.N.A.T.E. apprenticeships were tied in with and qualified by the N.S.W. Technical College and the N.S.W. Apprenticeship Board.
In the Navy it was training, training, training with the only concession to commercial values being the time allocated to each excercise. If the test job was within tolerance and therefore technically prefect, percentage points were deducted for overtime on the completion.
I could go on for hours but you are probably bored already so I will bail up here.
Yes I am a baby boomer, born in 1950. Do I still practise my trade? Yes, but only on my own boats, cars, houses etc.
Current project, rebuilding the hollow, aerofoil shaped, steel rudder for my Van De Stadt 34 yacht. It rotted out with rust due to not being correctly seal welded in the original build.
Cheers Cisco, which is the name of the yacht.
Would you hire a store person with a cert 3 or 4 in Warehousing and transport, Frontline Management or aged health care over a store person with no accreditation but both have the same experience in similar work environments?
I understand what you are saying but as a trainer / assessor I get to see the benefits of trainees with zero confidence grow into competent and more productive people which seems to trigger that inner mind gear that makes people believe in themselves and start to take steps in personal growth.
Not all people can or have the ability to study from an early age something they know that they want to be, they may also be affected by all kinds of external influences, peer pressure, family life, parental advise which is 15 years out of date and so on.
So there is a need to provide training to people who show some signs of exponential growth which in turn will benefit an employer at some point during the employment of that individual.
Yes keep apprenticeships as they are, experience = time and shortening that education will be foolish.
The defense forces always have the better training facilities and budgets as it is Australians DEFENSE FORCE!!! so they need to be trained and exposed to the very best methods that are around at the time.
I have a Diploma in Warehouse and Logistics Management, Cert 4 in Vocational Education and Training and have just completed my Cert4 in TAA Training and Assessing within the transport, warehousing and logistics environment. So I am not overly educated, I have used my work life experience to build my education as opposed to yourself who got experience through training.
I guess all I am trying to say is that any education that saves a young person from a tight ar5e employer not forking out for PPE which is Legislation I might add which in turn harms that young employee, is there a price on that?
Kearnsy - Not all mine site jobs earn you 100K per year and you can earn bloody good dollars in Perth and not be in the Pilbara away from family and friends.
Sorry guys I just realised what the time is and Im buggered.
Good Thread and great discussion.
Cheers GT
This thread is about Skills and Training so I make the following observation.
Without being sarcastic or pointing the finger at anyone at all, it is quite obvious to me that throughout the forum, many people are lazy when it comes to expressing themselves, or, have not been taught a reasonable command of the English language.
Maths and language are core subjects of just about any education one would like to mention.
I am just a two or three finger typer and am unable to watch the screen while typeing so I have to constantly review the screen to check my script to ensure I am sending the right message.
Is this such a hard thing to do that most people just keep typing away and hope that we all get the gist of the message or is it a result of poor education?
No. My English is not perfect. Yes I do make mistakes and sometimes drop into the vernacular.
It just puzzles me that people do not write more correctly on the forum as I find writing on the computer a whole lot easier than writing by hand on a piece of paper. Cheers Cisco
Select to expand quotecisco said...
This thread is about Skills and Training so I make the following observation.
Without being sarcastic or pointing the finger at anyone at all, it is quite obvious to me that throughout the forum, many people are lazy when it comes to expressing themselves, or, have not been taught a reasonable command of the English language.
Maths and language are core subjects of just about any education one would like to mention.
I am just a two or three finger typer and am unable to watch the screen while typeing so I have to constantly review the screen to check my script to ensure I am sending the right message.
I totaly agree with you 100% . i can only comment on my industry also being an engineering one in that we struggle to find young people willing to work hard and stay " clean" i know some one will jump on this statment but i stand by it as a helicopter engineer like alot of other jobs any form of impairment can kill people or your self but all to common we get young people through on work experiance or other type systems who dont seem to get that actions have concequences and thats a shame. then we find that good young people who want to learn and work hard are side tracked by Tafes etc becouse thay dont thave TEE maths or phyiscs or english... and iv seen these guys and girls make some of the best LAMES we have. speaking agine only from a view of my industry the avarage age of a licanced aircraft enginner in aust is 50+ there in a shortage but it seems loke alot of other trades im sure there are to many usless hoops to jump through for young people written by some one sitting in an office with know knowlage of the skill for which thay are writing the basic requirments... this is just my obsevations...
i think the answer is to pay apprentices more, especially in their first and second years.
when i started my apprenticeship as a boilermaker in the early 90's i was earning less than most of my mates who were on the dole. they would be paid more to sit around and drink or go surfing than i was to get up at 5 and burn myself every day.
its all well and good to say that it pays off in the long run, (and it has), because when you are a 16 year old kid its difficult to use that sort of foresight. if there was more financial incentive, i think more kids would learn a trade.
I don't think there's much can be done about it. I've got trade qualifications (carpenter/joiner), ran a business for 14 years, closed it to follow my choice of career...which meant back to school...now also have a diploma (building design & technology).
This gets me a job that pays less than the national average! But it's what I want to do...so I'm happy!
One of the reasons I closed my business was that I got frustrated that I couldn't pay my employees what they deserved...they worked 40hours a week...and WORKED it! Some of their mates 'turn-up' at the local major industry (aluminium smelter) where they don't require skills, work 14 days a month, have a 2-year sick/injured leave plan, are allowed sleep rests during their shifts, and most admit that they're way overpaid at 80-100k.
I'd like to see a rise in wages for trade qualified workers & more emphasis on apprenticeships...but I don't see it happening any time soon.
). I don't think doing an apprenticeship has paid off for me financially, but in regard to knowledge, and mental growth, I wouldn't have done things any different.
apprenticeships, when your 10 foot tall and bulletproof 16-24
money is the only ego driver. However, to learn to be humble,
sweep the workshop floor and assist tradeys, learn why things
are done as they are , not the way you want to do it, learn the
language reading and written, then it dosn't hurt to make year one
a test of ones determination, reward comes soon enough. My child
has signed up for seven year uni path to reward, it is a path that
opens as one progresses
every body starts at the bottom yes apprentership/ training wages are far to low and need to be raised. but there seems to be an attatude that i want it now!!!
I not sweeping the floor or whatever it is screw that i want that hes got and i want to be rewarded the same. slogging out 4 years doing an apprentership/ training program or sit on my ass at uni for 4 years walk out in to the real world and it a totaly forigen enviroment. im not baging uni,s for the right people who put in the hard work its the way to go.... but for some its seen as a easy option. lets face it.
During the first three and a half years of the Navy apprenticeship we were paid $20 per fortnight with no incremental rises.
If you ran out of money you did not go on leave and stayed on the base where food and board was free. There was always something to do onboard. Sports and hobbies abounded.
On that $20 then (1966-1971) we got drunk, smoked cigarettes and drove around in our cars of a weekend.
The equivalent figure today would probably be around $300 per fortnight.
I imagine apprentices today start on at least $10/hour which for a 40 hour week would nett them $300+/week. Surely that is enough money for a 16 y.o. to pay their parents some board, run a cheap car and go out one or two nights a week??
Following a trade or profession is a discipline and throwing big money at trainees is just pandering to the "I Want It Now" attitude which is a lack of discipline.
Seems to me it would be counter productive and lead to less committed trade and professional people and a lowering of standards.
it think my first car cost me about 800 bucks was sweet too
Thankyou to all for your views.
Im a Mechanical Fitter Machinist and I supervise a workshop in Perth.
I did a full 4 year aprentaship.
In my opinion the best apprentices are the ones that have been to Tafe and got a Pre vocational certificate in some sort of engineering. It is the equivilent of the first year of an apprentaship and they get thier time reduced back to 3.5 years.
I am having trouble finding really good apprentices these days.
To be a good apprentice you dont need too be the smartest person out there . The thing that counts most is that you have common sense , good work ethic and are committed to your future. If you have these 3 aspects you will become a great tradesman.
I have a concearn that our future tradesmen and women wont be at the standard of the tradesmen that have served our country over the last 50 years.
They were rather "craftsmen" than tradesmen and very intelligent.
Soooo , any one know any good kids?????
i think you hit it spot on mate you can teach some one who wants to learn and in the end thats what it comes down to. and like you say where do you find young people willing to commit learn and grow into good skilled workers.
I know some complete idiots, sorry mate no. Wish I could get some good people myself 
[}:)]
Finding competent, trustworthy kids that were keen to learn a trade 15 years ago was relatively easy...the last couple of apprentices I trained were hard work, and didn't have the ethics that their predecessors did...
...generational thing? I blame the PARENTS!
I agree,
Apprentices need a bit more money and employers need more support, there is little reward for hard work and commitment from the smaller businesses.
I wish I had left school earlier and chased an apprenticeship.
I admire all those people who bit the bullet at a young age who took on an apprenticeship, on yas!
Cheers GT
so not bad from an under acheiver at school who failed at everything except woodwork & metalwork 
silicon maybe..
so not bad from an under acheiver at school who failed at everything except woodwork & metalwork
so not bad from an under acheiver at school who failed at everything except woodwork & metalwork
Back in 1995, my first year out of school, I worked as a clerical trainee for 12 months. 3 days on the job, 2 days at tech. I was paid $382.60/fortnight. I lived at home with my parents, I didn't own my own car, I caught the train to work (an hour and a half each way). That was plenty of money for me. These days kids all have their own cars which require petrol and new tyres each time they smoke 'em up. They're out almost every night drinking or partying so they aren't happy earning an amount similar to what I was on.
Pay apprentices more? You might get more interested kids applying, but are they really going to be suitable employees?
^^^ Your right Herry paying tradesmen more sounds like a great solution
Anyone ever read a book called "Rich Dad Poor Dad" ??? The shortcut moral of the story is to work for nothing at the start and get it all later.
Kearnsy said...
"Anyone ever read a book called "Rich Dad Poor Dad" ??? The shortcut moral of the story is to work for nothing at the start and get it all later."
The moral of the story is to write ANOTHER bloody self-improvement book to flog to the wannabee millionaires so you don't have to do anything except write another bloody self-improvement book that nobody really needs !!!
ps I read it and realised I didn't need it.....those types of books are all about vague generalities.
THata a pretty general statement there mate and Im not going to "take your bait".
I read it in my early 20's and if i did'nt start "paying my investments" then I wouldnt be in the position I am now. Kinda like an apprentaship really
