I rang a used boat dealer today and inquired about a boat he had for sale, now on the web site it said that particular boat was "Under Offer" so I rang to see if the deal had gone through or had fallen through and as so many used boat dealers are slack in maintaining their web pages I thought I'd ring to see what the go was with this boat.
The dealer tells me that the boat is being pulled tomorrow for survey. Yeah ok I thought, but what if the bloke doesn't buy it, he is the owner of the survey report which means the next sucker that comes along will need to commission a new survey to find out if the boat is worth buying.
Now when I sell a car, here in NSW at least I have to provide a RWC (Pink Slip) why is it not the case that if an owner want to sell a boat, he, at the very least should have to go halves with the dealer in suppling a survey rather than having every new prospective buyer jump through the hoops and have to do it all over again.
Just a thought, but it appears to me that there is something wrong with the system. What onus if any falls back on the used boat dealer if there is something wrong with my "new" used boat?
Ps. Yes I have had a glass or two and that's when my mind turns to weird thoughts.
Yes Harry the system sucks!!
I recently got to the survey stage onmy quest to own a yacht but pulled out after seeing the survey! Its a costly part of the purchase! Once I pulled out I had the dealer asking me if he could have the survey to help him sell the boat he stopped asking when I asked if the boat brokerage would pay for it! My guess is that the next prospective client that comes along would be in couraged to go to the same surveyor!!
Any serious yachtsman can blow a non professional broker out of the water with a few pointed questions. A serious prospective purchasor is entitled to meet the vendor, especially if the broker lacks knowledge.
As far as surveys go, there are surveys and there are certificates of registration and compliance that I believe are required by transport before a transfer of registration can take place. (eg., Gas stove fitted, gas certificate needed.)
It is just like motor vehicles. You wont get insurance unless you have a seaworthiness certificate.
The system does not suck, it is people's lack of awareness of it that sucks.
Many "Marine Surveyors" are silver tails that have done a course and got a certificate that they think entitles them to charge $5,000 for a cursory inspection of a vessel followed by a fancy computer print out with a few photos pasted into the document which contains some flowery words included in the template for the document.
What are the requirements (legal or practical) for seaworthiness of practically any vessel, anywhere in the world???
1. Watertight integrity of the hull and decks.
2. Correct operation of the vessel's propulsion equipment.
3. Navigation Lights.
4. Compass, sounder and two way radio.
5. Safety and rescue equipment.
Most everything else is superfluous.
The person who pays for the "Survey" is the one who asks for it.
My experience with brokers and surveyors has been quite different. Without exception the brokers I have visited and contacted when I was looking for my first boat some years ago and subsequently have all been sources of genuine advice rather than selling agents.
Brokers are just that, they broker a deal between buyer and seller. The starting point was always they wanted to to understand what I was wanting to do, what my level of experience was etc and then match that to a suitable boat. I have had dealers tell me not to buy a boat they had for sale because it wasn't right for me. I have had dealers recommend me to a certain type of boat even though they did not have any of those on their own books. I have had dealers advise me to seriously reconsider changing my boat for ones they were selling because they thought the boat I had was a better boat for me. I have been to a lot of brokers and they have been a great source of guidance.
Marine Surveyors no doubt are like any other service provider in the marine industry. Some are better than others. Fortunately I was given good advice by an experienced sailor and sailing school principal on who to use when I bought my boat and I have used the same surveyor for subsequent 5 yearly insurance inspection reports. So ask around.
Finally the nub of the post is I think about the need for a buyer to obtain an inspection. When you buy a car it is up to the buyer whether they want to get an inspection from their own mechanic or motoring organisation. This is a cost to the buyer. Unlike a car boat insurers usually require an inspection report - at least for sail boats. Yes a marine survey is not cheap - especially as you usually need to pay for the boat to be slipped. Thus this is where the broker comes back into the picture to make sure you don't have any nasty surprises. Rather a surveyor may find some work that should be attended to and the broker will negotiate to adjust the price accordingly.
I think you should buy on impulse!
Interestingly when I bought my yacht I was not assured I was buying it till I met the owner and passed muster!
You are right John but why not do what some states do with there cars and recent certificate of seaworthiness must be suppied at the time of sale. Dealers, brokers, or person selling the boat to responsable to provide the certificate, this may push the price up but at least you know it's safe to leave the dock. You can then have a survey done to see what you are up for before you buy but at the moment you can buy, sail and sink with no come back!
I had a broker tell me " no problems sailing single handed mate" this was for a 43' 11 ton steel yacht! but having said that other brokers are fantastic good advise and work to the true letter of the word broker and seem to love being the go between the parties.
The issue remains, a survey commissioned by a seller or broker using their mate isn't to be trusted. Do you really expect a roadworthy arranged by the seller to be an honest appraisal of the car?
I have seen commercial Lloyds surveys, in the UK, that was done by the brokers brother. It was a load of the proverbial. Lloyds are a fantastic business and they have these issues, what confidence would you have in the local bloke who was selected by the people who will profit from selling the boat.
Either do your own inspection or have an experienced owner help if you are new to boats. The survey is to get formal sign off for insurance. The standard surveyor disclaimer absolves them of any accountability, and my experience is that none would be in business if they were accountable.
Caveat emptor.
Like Cisco, I believe the buyer must have access to the seller. Brokers will fight this so they can maintain control of the sale process. I walked away from buying my boat until I could talk to the owner.
