and the trim box...
Showed up on my youtube yesterday and thought I'd check in. Gobsmacked when I saw the foil mast and noticed the ends. Wingfoil only but what many of us have suggested for a while: tuttle box foils take off a bit easier than tracks. imo, tuttles install faster.
I love my Tuttle,
Two bolts so its quick to mount
Very solid connection, not sure how the shims will work
Wish SAB would go back to the simple carbon top and get rid of the incorrectly designed, heavy, flanged aluminum kraken tuttle.
My board builder says the tracks can add pound or 2 to the weight of a board over the tuttle.
IMHO I figured I would switch to plate a plate mount when the PWA racers did. Maybe we will see more tuttle masts from all manufactures in the future.
Thanks Paducah!
It interesting. I can't argue the good points of Tuttle, only 2 bolts, lighter and less drag when the board is in the water. Those are just facts. Are they most important details for all of us, that's grayer.
PWA is still Tuttle.
Patrick talks about stiffness a lot with his Aeon set ups but chooses Tuttle. I think with the ever-smaller wings they ride the stiffness is good enough and drag is the priority.
Adrian at Axis is also focused on stiffness and says Tuttle is not the answer because the foil wants to be thicker at the board connection than the Tuttle is. Makes sense right the biggest loads are at the connection to the board.
Intuitively from a structural point of view, I like a tapered composite mast with a thicker top and molded in plate. With my ever-increasing front wing size, I need all the stiffness I can get, and I am considering a used Axis fatty mast to gain the added stiffness of a monocoque plate and tapered thickness.
I have thought about recessing the track, because as a garage shaper I can. I typically don't move the mast once I have things dialed in. Just make the top of the plate flush with the bottom of the board.
The other thought I have is for the foil builders. Keep the Tuttle conceptually, just make it thicker so the top of the mast can be thicker.
The slingshot rake adjustment shims are puzzling, for it to work it has to ignore the importance of the full contact wedging at the front and back walls. Perhaps they are just for fore and aft location, such that if you are not full forward or full aft you use two shims one each side of the mast. We all just associate shims with rake, maybe they should call them spacers.
Select to expand quoteutcminusfour said..
Thanks Paducah!
It interesting. I can't argue the good points of Tuttle, only 2 bolts, lighter and less drag when the board is in the water. Those are just facts. Are they most important details for all of us, that's grayer.
PWA is still Tuttle.
Patrick talks about stiffness a lot with his Aeon set ups but chooses Tuttle. I think with the ever-smaller wings they ride the stiffness is good enough and drag is the priority.
Adrian at Axis is also focused on stiffness and says Tuttle is not the answer because the foil wants to be thicker at the board connection than the Tuttle is. Makes sense right the biggest loads are at the connection to the board.
Intuitively from a structural point of view, I like a tapered composite mast with a thicker top and molded in plate. With my ever-increasing front wing size, I need all the stiffness I can get, and I am considering a used Axis fatty mast to gain the added stiffness of a monocoque plate and tapered thickness.
I have thought about recessing the track, because as a garage shaper I can. I typically don't move the mast once I have things dialed in. Just make the top of the plate flush with the bottom of the board.
The other thought I have is for the foil builders. Keep the Tuttle conceptually, just make it thicker so the top of the mast can be thicker.
The slingshot rake adjustment shims are puzzling, for it to work it has to ignore the importance of the full contact wedging at the front and back walls. Perhaps they are just for fore and aft location, such that if you are not full forward or full aft you use two shims one each side of the mast. We all just associate shims with rake, maybe they should call them spacers.
Good Points Heres my 2 cents worth
I think there are a few mast manufactures that have lengthen the mast cord near the top (and still use a tuttle) Then minimized the thickness and cord nearer the bottom to get the best drag, stiffness and board connectiion(tuttle). I have not tried the 95cm F4 race mast which falls into this category and seemed to have good reviews
I am not sure about the shims either, for the reason of connection compromise, as I have been told by manufactures that the tuttle system is designed to take all the load in the friction fit at the ends of the mast/box. But if you have a front and back shim, both at the same angle to accept the tuttle mast head I believe the friction fit would be maintained. Its more about transferring the load to the box thru the shims; as the shims will have some very small space on either side to allow them to slide into the oversized tuttle. If you imagine shims 1/2 the width of a box and the resulting play they would have it gives you an idea of what I am describing. I guess we will find out.
IMHO a simple tuttle and a simple mast; with my board builder setting the mast angle works great form me. Given some folks will like to have flexibility I am just happy we are seeing some additional tuttle mast options; just hoping the bolt pattern fits in the standard tuttle box. Oh when the PWA racers start using the oversized box I may look into it 😂
Doesn't rely one bit on taper engagement....like I've been saying for years.
Tuttle is good for racing and longer fuselages, but for WWF / foil style I need to move/adjust foil position. Btw, durable foil Tuttle box is as heavy or more vs double tracks. I saw about 6 month ago one company was designing adjustable 'tuttle' box, now that would be interesting to me if adapted by all, but that's a big 'if'
In my foiling journey I went from tuttle, to jack plate, to twin tracks. I've often used different brand boards and foils and the jack plate and twin tracks allow for different foil and fuselage dimensions, foot strap and sail mast base positions and stab shimming, etc. I installed my own twin tracks on my Predator 110 when the corrosion on the jack plate made it unusable. I wouldn't go back to a tuttle.
Slingshots solution is using an adjustable Tuttle box and because of the adjustability there are holes and insets to allow use of up to 5 bolts for attachment.
Is adjustable Tuttle the optimum solution? Probability not, but it is superior to the plate system mechanically and hydrodynamicly as well as allowing compatability with existing Tuttle foils like f4, mikes lab, z, and patrik.
I wonder why they didn't go with two slots rather than a series of holes. Obviously there is some strength difference but it can't be a huge amount considering the entire top of that box must be mostly carbon.
You're saying this board is compatible with regular Tuttle?
I believe that compatability is one of the goals. I do know that they have tested with chewbanga, levataz, and mikeslab foils in addition to the prototype slingshot project drag mast. And are expecting compatability with f4 and f-one.
Box is modeled after the Mike McKinley tuttlebox.com boxes listed above.
This is so depressingly stupid, and where common sense hits the economic reality
OF COURSE a huge 4 point plate is way stiffer (all angles) than a two point bad fit tuttle box with lots of play by defuault. Adjustable tuttle box is just a proof of how worthless any non-adjustable set up is for real quivers, where different boards and wings combine into different sweet spots. This was the reason slingshot ditched the tuttle in the first place, no holding back.
And how are u gonna stabilize these massive vertical forces in a tuttle? Plastic shims? More bolts? Worthless, not gonna work.
wrt to friction - well if you can hide a foildrive battery in the board now, u can for sure snug in the dimensions of a proper plate. Or u can just ignore it because it doesn’t matter that mich. Alla foil masts should look like slingshot phantasm wide, still as solid as it gets around the plate (fuse connection could be beefed up though)
instead, a real improvement would be to set the box angle properly at 2 degree default rake - as this anyhow is what riders need (for wing and windsurfing)
^^^ I agree with a lot of that.
I suspect it to be a Gorge-oriented decision perhaps as all the wingers here in Oz use plate systems. There’s about 1-5% at a guess who use a Tuttle mast as they’re racing. So whilst slingshot might think a board that suits Mike’s and chewy foil systems are just great I really dunno about the rest of the world thinking that. They want plate n tracks.
more windsurfers than wingers use Tuttle as it’s used for IQ and slalom …. but there’s still as much or more on plate n tracks. But slingshot pulled out of windsurf so why would they care.
seems to me they’re just smashing out ideas and videos as the winger market is saturated and they want something different every 6-12mths. Reinvented the wheel in the process.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
^^^ I agree with a lot of that.
I suspect it to be a Gorge-oriented decision perhaps as all the wingers here in Oz use plate systems. There’s about 1-5% at a guess who use a Tuttle mast as they’re racing. So whilst slingshot might think a board that suits Mike’s and chewy foil systems are just great I really dunno about the rest of the world thinking that. They want plate n tracks.
more windsurfers than wingers use Tuttle as it’s used for IQ and slalom …. but there’s still as much or more on plate n tracks. But slingshot pulled out of windsurf so why would they care.
seems to me they’re just smashing out ideas and videos as the winger market is saturated and they want something different every 6-12mths. Reinvented the wheel in the process. 
The “evolution” in winging has really escalated a lot quicker than i thought it would. Was it like this at the dawn of windsurfing?
so much for it being the affordable windsport.
Definitely reinventing and questioning assumptions everywhere. What they are working on is a reoptimization of the overall system. New board shape with Ken Adgate and Kevin 2e, adjustable Tuttle from Mike McKinley, new mast design and new high aspect foils from Bobby. The overall package should be something special.
Board will also be available in track form for those so inclined.
The Tuttle is definitely superior from a mechanical prospective. The transition from the mast to the plate is a total mess from a composite design point of view ( why do you think the cedrus mast uses an Al base plate) and the foil box tying the bottom of the board to the deck gives a stiffer, more secure connection. Hydrodynamically, while the testers are in agreement that it is better, simulation is problematic due the turbulence in this area causing convergence issues for the CFD.
Here in the San Francisco Bay parawing is the a fast growing discipline.
The boards are going through a fast evolution curve as touchdown drag is a big issue for them.
The Mikes Lab foils are the gold standard her on the bay .Mike has both tuttle and track and his kite racing masts are 5 bolt tuttle heads.
The board design for slingshot Project Drag came from a one of the top watermen on the bay and home-grow board builder . Ken Adgate
The best best part is that Mike Zajicek (Mikes Lab) rides Ken Adgate boards and is a parawinger.
Michael Mckinley is long time windsurfer,windfoiler and now parawinger from Berkeley.
Also all three of them always have kind words and compliments about my windfoiling style. I blessed that I get to ride with such good riders and legends. I love my local spot Treasure Island San francisco.....
Let the triggering start.....
www.instagram.com/ken_adgate/
www.instagram.com/lavagoatlabs/
www.facebook.com/groups/mikeslab
But but, i thought having all that drag from a plate was incentive to learn not to touch down?
seriously though, like sailor trash said, why do they not just design a better plate? I’ve seen some pretty out there looking plates, but never anything that looks even slightly what i’d call streamlined.
at least this design has some slight improvements on the single track that appletree were calling “adjustable tuttle” a while back. Maybe this one might cope with your average weekend warrior winger, but not on a windfoil board, race or other. I wonder what Mr Tuttle would think if he saw his name attached to these adjustable designs, that don’t really match the patent? Maybe this one is functionally a bit closer, but technically its not.
Look, Tuttle is fin-solution, to deal with side forces
there is very little of this in a foil, the force is vertical
doesn’t matter if the box goes through the deck, the pressure point is just in front of mast/deck attachment area
what u need is a pedestal solution. We see that implementation in mast/fuse connections. Starboard even went all in with 4 bolts. But those forces are way smaller than what u get on the deck in front of the mast.
u can ride a foil on a power box if you have a plate (i did it for years). It will hold until the sandwhich deformes.
it’s tricky to scale a proper pedestal solution, I get it, and garage factories might not be up to the challenge. You likely make less money vs tuttle where everything is in place. Doesn’t change the fact that its crappy solution that doesn’t even meet the basic user requirement of trimming your setup.
if u cant move your foil, u have to move your foostraps instead. I actually have pals considering that effort on the beach..
