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How much downhaul rope do you show?

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Created by nebbian > 9 months ago, 20 Jun 2008
nebbian
WA, 6277 posts
20 Jun 2008 11:58PM
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That is, the distance between pulleys, when you're sailing along.

Should you:
a) Always shorten your extension if you can, and so usually show 3-5 cm?

b) Not worry about it unless there's more than 10 cm showing?

c) Always have more than 10cm showing?


Why?

Bertie
NSW, 1351 posts
21 Jun 2008 2:31AM
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you should always keep it as low as you can.
if you tune ur rig up to make the sail look like you want it and you could go down 1 hole on the extension then do it.

it lowers the centre of effort of the rig which will allow for more speed and better control. mainly coz you can raise your center of weight to match

i would guess the gap between my pulleys would never be more than 5cm apart, usually less than 3cm.

lanky
QLD, 213 posts
21 Jun 2008 8:09AM
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Always less than 3cm, always!

swoosh
QLD, 1929 posts
21 Jun 2008 8:12AM
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usually only like a thumbs width.

elmo
WA, 8897 posts
21 Jun 2008 9:48AM
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nebbian said...

That is, the distance between pulleys, when you're sailing along.

Should you:
a) Always shorten your extension if you can, and so usually show 3-5 cm?

b) Not worry about it unless there's more than 10 cm showing?

c) Always have more than 10cm showing?


Why?


Get a better sail that rigg's right

NotWal
QLD, 7436 posts
21 Jun 2008 12:02PM
Thumbs Up

nebbian said...

That is, the distance between pulleys, when you're sailing along.

Should you:
a) Always shorten your extension if you can, and so usually show 3-5 cm?

b) Not worry about it unless there's more than 10 cm showing?

c) Always have more than 10cm showing?


Why?


I always have less than an extension increment and I even ground 6 mm off the pully support on the extension to make a bit more room for the tack to pull down into. (although I wouldn't have bothered with it if I didn't have to sand and grind other bits just to make the collar fit properly)

Why? - because I'm a short arse and I want the centre of lift as low as I can get it.
Incidentally I WISH that sail manufacturers would publish the height of the centre of lift. I know it moves down with down haul but they could publish the mean height for the extremes of the downhaul range.

da vecta
QLD, 2515 posts
21 Jun 2008 1:28PM
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...about 40cm


...i loved the 80s

P.C_simpson
WA, 1492 posts
21 Jun 2008 12:00PM
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No gap at all, i spend about and hour on each new sail to get it rigged perfect so the the pulleys are touching each other on minimum downhaul, then if i need more i go up one hole in the extension and pull it all the way down again for high wind setting, this way my rig is always rigged the same and i can rig it perfect realy fast before the wind and wave bugger off, another good idea is too draw a line around my extension so i know how much i need for each sail, and no excuses for sailing crap that day apart from pilot error. the lower the rig is, the lower the centre of gravity and better control, also for slalom and race gear they will be faster with less gap between the board and sail.

jp747
1553 posts
21 Jun 2008 12:53PM
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i think 10cm is a tad too much really depends on the settings but then again the luff base is somewhat of a mystery with different sail brands..even with correct downwhaul there is too much luff pocket left

russh
SA, 3027 posts
21 Jun 2008 2:42PM
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1-2cm max.

more than that your extensions too long or your adjustable heads too short.

All the rigging guides I've recomend minimum possible no more than 1-2

silvec01
WA, 645 posts
21 Jun 2008 3:47PM
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With the Maui Sails, they want 2-3 cm of floating pully on the tr4. They have a recessed pully so it sits low to the deck anyway.
If you pull this block to block, there is too much pressure on the cam against the mast and it wont rotate..

decrepit
WA, 12889 posts
21 Jun 2008 5:31PM
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elmo said...

[>>>
Get a better sail that rigg's right


Sorry Elmo don't follow you on this, I don't see how the sail has any effect on whether the extension is set to the optimum length or not.

Mine is usually about 2cm, depending on the pulley system, if one of the ropes is a bit offset it limits how close the pulleys can get.

I don't think a centimeter or so is going to have a noticeable effect, but much more than that probably will.

NotWal
QLD, 7436 posts
21 Jun 2008 7:45PM
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silvec01 said...

With the Maui Sails, they want 2-3 cm of floating pully on the tr4. They have a recessed pully so it sits low to the deck anyway.
If you pull this block to block, there is too much pressure on the cam against the mast and it wont rotate..



They did something like that on the old Gaastras. I have one of the last of the Manics that was designed by Barry and it has a big piece of flat plastic that cantilevers down from the tack pully projecting the sail foot down a good 60 mm or so. It doesn't seem to sit flat though and the sail foot feels a little soft unlike most where the foot is as hard as. In principle its seems like a good idea. They probably have it right by now.

elmo
WA, 8897 posts
21 Jun 2008 7:09PM
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decrepit said...

elmo said...

[>>>
Get a better sail that rigg's right


Sorry Elmo don't follow you on this, I don't see how the sail has any effect on whether the extension is set to the optimum length or not.

Mine is usually about 2cm, depending on the pulley system, if one of the ropes is a bit offset it limits how close the pulleys can get.

I don't think a centimeter or so is going to have a noticeable effect, but much more than that probably will.


Tis nothing just our little Scezzy vs Gay pryde digs going on

nebbian
WA, 6277 posts
21 Jun 2008 7:12PM
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elmo said...

decrepit said...

elmo said...

[>>>
Get a better sail that rigg's right


Sorry Elmo don't follow you on this, I don't see how the sail has any effect on whether the extension is set to the optimum length or not.

Mine is usually about 2cm, depending on the pulley system, if one of the ropes is a bit offset it limits how close the pulleys can get.

I don't think a centimeter or so is going to have a noticeable effect, but much more than that probably will.


Tis nothing just our little Scezzy vs Gay pryde digs going on


You mean Scoft vs Gay pryde

Richiefish
QLD, 5612 posts
21 Jun 2008 9:29PM
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I'm too embarassed to show ANY down haul "rope". ( so I cover it up)...Damn purple spectra !!!

vando
QLD, 3419 posts
21 Jun 2008 9:55PM
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Always good to leave a couple of centimeters I reckon.
Those last centimeters puts that extra strain on the rope and pulleys oh and my back.

da vecta
QLD, 2515 posts
23 Jun 2008 1:46PM
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yep there is no need to go totally block to block.

but what is important is knowing where the different manufactures measure the downhaul settings from and to.

NotWal
QLD, 7436 posts
23 Jun 2008 3:06PM
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No one is making an extension with really low pulleys like the old Chinook any more. For some of us it is important to keep the rig as low and as close to the deck as we can so block to block is the preferred setting. If you do use that setup its important that the pulleys align AND that the hole where the rope starts, and the cleat, are in the best possible positions to suit the line wreathing. If they put the pulleys lower this wouldn't be so critical.

The plain old tack cringle defines the fundamental line wreathing that all extensions that pretend to be universal should accommodate. The basic wreathing for that is line starts on the same side as the cleat, goes through the cringle loops over (preferably) a "loop and go" pulley then back through the cringle and into the cleat. If you introduce another pulley you then have to move the start point for the line to the opposite side from the cleat. So at a bare minimum a universal extension should have a start point for the rope on each side of the pulley block.

I could go on....

MavericK040
WA, 583 posts
23 Jun 2008 7:43PM
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i always set my extension so that the pulleys come all the way down to the bottom so the bottom of the luff is covering the bottom of the extension.

what i cant understand is WHY T.F. do they not have the pulley block on my old gaastra GTX oriented the same way as the extension pulleys? when you downhaul it the block twists around putting more stress on it and you cant get it all the way down cos the ropes jump off the pulley and makes it really hard to pull the last bit on.

another question is , what does everyone else do with the excess downhaul rope left over?
i used to just wrap it around and tie it off but now i stuff it up into one of the lower adjustment holes of the extension.

firiebob
WA, 3183 posts
23 Jun 2008 7:57PM
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MavericK040 said...

i always set my extension so that the pulleys come all the way down to the bottom so the bottom of the luff is covering the bottom of the extension.

what i cant understand is WHY T.F. do they not have the pulley block on my old gaastra GTX oriented the same way as the extension pulleys? when you downhaul it the block twists around putting more stress on it and you cant get it all the way down cos the ropes jump off the pulley and makes it really hard to pull the last bit on.

another question is , what does everyone else do with the excess downhaul rope left over?
i used to just wrap it around and tie it off but now i stuff it up into one of the lower adjustment holes of the extension.


I wrap it around the extension, do a clove hitch and then excess into an extension hole like you cos it locks off the knot, but on my Loft O2 there is a nice little pocket to put it

With the distance between the pullys I never have more than a cm or two at the most.

jp747
1553 posts
23 Jun 2008 9:01PM
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MavericK040 said...

i always set my extension so that the pulleys come all the way down to the bottom so the bottom of the luff is covering the bottom of the extension.

what i cant understand is WHY T.F. do they not have the pulley block on my old gaastra GTX oriented the same way as the extension pulleys? when you downhaul it the block twists around putting more stress on it and you cant get it all the way down cos the ropes jump off the pulley and makes it really hard to pull the last bit on.

another question is , what does everyone else do with the excess downhaul rope left over?
i used to just wrap it around and tie it off but now i stuff it up into one of the lower adjustment holes of the extension.


do you really trust your jam cleat on your extensioni've seen rental shops do that alot but in time they get corroded and the teeth tend to get dull and suddenly the downhaul rope just unloosens..and it's a long day trying to get back to the beach

decrepit
WA, 12889 posts
23 Jun 2008 9:47PM
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MavericK040 said...

<<<<
what i cant understand is WHY T.F. do they not have the pulley block on my old gaastra GTX oriented the same way as the extension pulleys?>>>>>>


When you have 2 pulley blocks at right angles too each other, you don't thread the rope in a spiral.
It's a bit hard to explain in words, but imagine you have an invisible cube, the rope starts out at the lower forward left corner, then goes to the upper forward left corner, round the pulley and so out the forward upper right corner, then down to the lower forward right corner, round the pulley and out the lower right rear corner, up to the upper rear right corner, then back to the pulley at the lower rear left corner, out the lower left forward corner, up to the forward upper center pulley, out of that to the cleat..
No twist or tangles should be able to get the pulleys almost touching.

Hope it doesn't tangle your mind thou!!!!
get a pair of pulleys and see if you can follow it.

decrepit
WA, 12889 posts
23 Jun 2008 9:50PM
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OH yeah, last to days I've downhauled till the pulleys touch, but that jams the rope into the cleat so it doesn't want to release. Have to twist the sail pulley, to unjam the rope in the cleat, then the downhaul detensions with a bang, not good for sail, so I'm going to leave a few mm in future.

nebbian
WA, 6277 posts
23 Jun 2008 9:55PM
Thumbs Up

MavericK040 said...


what i cant understand is WHY T.F. do they not have the pulley block on my old gaastra GTX oriented the same way as the extension pulleys? when you downhaul it the block twists around putting more stress on it and you cant get it all the way down cos the ropes jump off the pulley and makes it really hard to pull the last bit on.


Check 'dis:


decrepit
WA, 12889 posts
23 Jun 2008 10:12PM
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a picture is worth 10,000 words!!!!!

mineral1
WA, 4564 posts
23 Jun 2008 10:46PM
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elmo said...

decrepit said...

OH yeah, last to days I've downhauled till the pulleys touch, but that jams the rope into the cleat so it doesn't want to release. Have to twist the sail pulley, to unjam the rope in the cleat, then the downhaul detensions with a bang, not good for sail, so I'm going to leave a few mm in future.




Admitedly I didn't think you could actually get the pulleys quite that intimate


Wish I had been there to see that[}:)]

vando
QLD, 3419 posts
24 Jun 2008 6:32PM
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NotWal said...

No one is making an extension with really low pulleys like the old Chinook any more. For some of us it is important to keep the rig as low and as close to the deck as we can so block to block is the preferred setting. If you do use that setup its important that the pulleys align AND that the hole where the rope starts, and the cleat, are in the best possible positions to suit the line wreathing. If they put the pulleys lower this wouldn't be so critical.

The plain old tack cringle defines the fundamental line wreathing that all extensions that pretend to be universal should accommodate. The basic wreathing for that is line starts on the same side as the cleat, goes through the cringle loops over (preferably) a "loop and go" pulley then back through the cringle and into the cleat. If you introduce another pulley you then have to move the start point for the line to the opposite side from the cleat. So at a bare minimum a universal extension should have a start point for the rope on each side of the pulley block.

I could go on....


You can get them Notwal I know Pierre had troubles with the 2008 5.8 Stealth.
Its luff is 431 and rigs on a 430 mast he did end up finding a extension with a low pulley, not sure what the brand it was though.

ta Vando



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"How much downhaul rope do you show?" started by nebbian