So KRudd got totally blasted by the conservative media for daring to suggest the UN should institute a "no Fly" policy over Gadafi's Lybia. So come on all you red neck right wingers , apologies to Rudd AND the UN can now be posted here.
Best & worst case scenario's- best... rebels win, another arab state is created that will eventually get the **s with western intervention & exploitation.
Worst- Gaddafhi still wins, has a major hate on for everyone and a few ex-IRA mates (that he used to fund) not doing anything interesting so they decide to go blow some stuff up.
Rudd was by no means ahead of the pack here, Arab union had called for no-fly zone long before ruddy & government thought it'd make them look good. Sometimes it's best to stop sticking your nose into everyone else's business.
Btw it's Libya.
man your struggling now. The Arab union only agreed to the "no fly" on Friday. Rudd was advocating the UN institute the "no fly" at least a week before.......and copping **** for it. Your best case scenario is bollocks as is your worst case scenario. Oh, yeah its the Arab league not the Arab union and it's Gaddafi not Gaddafhi..........so na na ni na na!
Credit due for democracy. It seems to be breaking out all over the Arab World.
Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Iran, Bahrain to name a few.
Is that a good thing log man or would you prefer a totalitarian communistic regime all over the world headed by an unelected committee of the UN?
log man you posted up about the country so you can at least get that right, I suggest you do some more research instead of dreaming of ruddy- many different spelling gaddafhi, gaddafi, gadafi- none of which are technically correct. Arab whoever were pushing for no-fly zone several weeks ago, putting it in writing I think you will find happened once they had the support of the UN.
"Be careful what you wish for. You might just get it."
All this talk about "democracy in the middle east" as though it will be like democracy in Australia. It won't be.
Most of those countries are too socially fragmented to maintain a stable democracy.
The two dominant religious sectors, Sunni & Shiite have been at each others throat for centuries. They probably will be for a lot longer.
The lid is kept on it by having some brutal power at the top who doesn't mind stepping in and kicking the excrement out of any who step out of line.
When you remove that power, the festering sore beneath is opened up and the result is a continual state of civil unrest which is for all intents and purposes, ungovernable.
That was the big mistake in Iraq. America thought that all they had to do was remove Sadam Hussein for peace and democracy to break out in Iraq.
For that reason they never planned anything much past "winning the war".
"Mission accomplished" George Dubbya said.
If the people had any capacity to pick up and run with democracy then that would have been true but sadly they didn't. They still haven't.
And while each side views their version of religion as being above the goals of a peacefull coexistence, they never will.
The same can be said for any country with a similar mix.
And any country with a government in continual chaos and failure is ripe for take over by the worst extremes, be it a Hitler, Sadam Hussein, Stalin, or the many despots who ran South American countries for 30 years around the 1970's, Argentina, Chile, etc.
I think G'daffy is a bullying self serving monster as was Hussein, but I don't think the country is going to do much better with whatever replaces him.
Whichever way the present conflict in Libya ends up, the inevitable strife and conflict which will occur in that country will now be blamed on the western world for interfering.
It should have been left to the arab countries to sort it out.
I am sick to death of Rudds voice-whether he might say something good or not now is immaterial, I have to physically cover my ears when he pops up.
To me he has no dignity-have a look back for any Prime Minister who has stayed on after being ousted.
We all know he talks out of a hole in his butt. He had his shot at the big time, and he was USELESS.
Love or hate Howard-at least you knew which way he was facing. Gillard is a puppet with about 6 hands up her clacker making her mouth move.
Will Rudd take the kudos if this proposed military intervention into this Libyan civil war drags it out for years and years? Seems like Ghaddafi's forces had just about won. Maybe it would have been better if they had and get the fighting over and done with. Too bad for the yanks and the west if the opposition won and turned the place into an Islamic republic. Wasn't that long ago when the mad colonel was on 'our' side in the war against 'terror'.
How is that war going? I checked the dictionary the other day and terror is still in there.
So what is a "No Fly Zone"? My understanding is that it is a green light to bomb the crap out of a country such that their airforce is incapable of flying, either because the planes have been destroyed or the airfields and infrastructure are destroyed. Seems to be a quaint political term for "We are going to bomb the crap out of you until you do as we want" which doesn't appear to be much different to the status quo of the forces of "good" against the forces of "evil" elsewhere in the arab world.
So yes congratulations to Rudd on suggesting we invade another Arab state!
I wonder how many UN countries would give a rats a$$ if Libya didn't have the 9th largest oil reserves in the world.
Did we bomb Aceh before the Tsunami? Nobody cared, what about East Timor, different story huh? Why? If we helped their independence from Indonesia we could alter the maritime boundaries so that the oil fields were now the property of Australia.
I am no expert on the rule of Tyrant dictators or mass genocide but it seems that that we only care if there's something in it for us...... It's obvious to me, it's also obvious why so many people hate the West when you think of it from this way.
P.S Yes I am a socialistic capitalist.
No I'm not happy for any state to be harming its citizens or subjects. I'm also not happy for any state to harming the citizens or subjects of another state. Its all the same in the end if a Libyan or French bomb lands on your head. So if Ghaddafi's forces win they will arrest and punish their enemies. If the opposition win they will arrest and punish their enemies. One bunch of bastards lording it over the others.
Why does the west get involved? If you believe its to stop the Libyan government from killing Libyan people then why isn't the west involved in the conflicts in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia between the Shi-ites people and the Sunni governments. Its this double standards that pisses people off.
So now we can add warmonger and neo-colonialist to the rest of labels that have been attached to Rudd.
I'm not sure if there is right on any side in Libya. Perhaps the opposition have right on their side but who really knows who the opposition is? Yes its horrific to see a state massacre its own people but its happened tens of times in the last 30 years. Rarely does any foreign country get involved unless the leaders see it in their own self interest. To think they do it to protect ordinary foreign people is quite laughable based previous action.
Yes my description of Rudd as a warmonger is over the top and not warranted. On the same hand Rudd will never be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize for pushing for aggressive military action.
Just wondering if this has been thought through? What's the plan after some bombs? Now the govt and police are gone the terrorists will rush to Lybia same as Iraq.
Do we want democracy in Lybia. When democracy came to Palestine the people voted in the so called terrorist organisation HAMAS and western governments could not comprehend why the people would want their goverernment to fight the invasion?
Anway we have to bomb them to save themm, the only way to save them is to kill them just like vietnam.
Every leader who decides its a good idea to get involved in Libya's civil war should ask themselves what would they do if an armed rebellion occured in their country. What would Sarkozy do if the Basques in southern France took up arms and attempted to storm Paris? What would the British government do if the Scots and Welsh declared war on England?
Would their responses be dissimilar to the response of the Libyan government? When the southern states of America exercised their constitutional right to succeed from the United States of America, Lincoln unleashed every force at his disposal to annihilate the South and teach them a lesson they would never forget.
If the same rules were at play back then as today then we would have had French, British, German and Canadian forces supporting the Confederate States.
What are the western powers going to do if the rebellion wins and they start a process of victors justice by rounding up their opponents and killing them, including whole tribes? Why is the life of a Libyan civilian worth more than an Arabian or Bahraini civilian?
Some of these analogies are not relevant at all. There is no invasion of Libya, there is a No fly zone. The reason the UN acted is because Gadaffi was using his own army and airforce to kill Libyan people,civilians. Somehow I just can't see Sarkozy using the french military to attack the people of Lyon. It's just not relevant. But anyway what would YOU do, sit back and watch while that crazy ****er massacred his own people, then say well we let that happen because there was a possibility that Lybia could have turned into an "Islamic state"?
I disagree in that I think the analogies are relevant. Many civil wars and rebellions involve civilians taking up arms against who they see as their enemy. When is someone a civilian and when are they an "enemy combatant"? I would imagine by the definition used by the U.S.A. the people being described by our media as civilians could just as easily defined as enemy combatants by the Libyan government.
The rebellion has been organised by civilians thus if Ghadaffi's forces are attacking their
enemies they are attacking civilians. The rebels are fortifying cities and towns. Even those sophisticated military forces with the most accurate weapon systems cannot help to hit innocent bystanders when there is fighting in urban areas.
So its not an invasion? If Chinese bombers and jet fighters enforced a no fly zone over Australia by bombing the crap out of all the airports, radar stations, army camps and anything else that was moving around, while lobbing a few missiles at the Lodge and Parliament House because they were being used as "command centres", would Australians think that was an invasion? Anyway special forces from England and France are already operating in Libya.
If the rebels win you can bet your bottom dollar the French, British and Americans will be doing their best to get the new government to give them all the concessions and rights that are required to make money out of the oil. If they don't get the concessions then Libya will go back to being a pariah state.
At no point am I saying that Ghaddafi is in the right. What I am saying its a matter for the Libyans to sort out. Foreign intervention on both sides will prolong the fighting and the killing. No country has the right to act aggressively against others but some countries and now the UN thinks they have some God given right to do so.
Got to agree with you on this one, Moby. Can't see why it's our business if the Libyans want to fight amongst themselves. Or if the Libyans are genuinely our business, why aren't all the other similar battles. The Sri Lankans fought like this for years... how many of them were killed? What did we do about it?
Call me cynical but the coalition force is going to help the fall of Kaddafi and put a few Muslim clerics in power in Libya! We had some control over Kaddafi but we will be at the mercy of the next rulers of Libya! History repeats itself!!! Remember Iran??? The Ayatollah that came in power after the dictator was outed had been cradled in France under political asylum!
Where was the “save the world” Americano- franco-britt coalition when in Rwanda the Hutu committed the worst genocide ever in Africa????? Maybe there is no oil in Rwanda! Of the top of my head they committed a 200 men strong blue helmet force to ensure that the white citizens of Rwanda could flee safely!
