Righto - happy to be corrected there (from what it seems above) Paradox. My understanding has been he was with AQ earlier and later with affiliated Taliban crazies.
With the amount of very loosely based fact put into print etc, it is a bit hard to sort wheat from sh!te at times.
Maybe he should have just taken the Bush/Channey/Howard line and denied ANY recallection of anything at all remotely incriminating. Worked a treat for them.. I guess that's the differance 5 years solo with a pole up ya bum and no likely-hood of release makes tho doesn't it? 
[Probably not an new experiance for Alexander Downer tho.]
It is still widely reported that US troops fight hostile invaders/foreign forces, when in fact the Taliban fighters are Afghani and largely remenants of the forces backed/trained and supplied by the US in previous conficts. Never let a nice rousing headline get in the way of information or fact ey?
15 years earlier the US would have hailed Hicks as a hero fighting alongside exactly the same people he was (with US helping out in every way). Does that not seem odd?
The US have tried many times to influence the house of Saud (the source of Osama's $$) and meddled with AQ/Taliban/Israel/Egypt/Jordan/Palastine/lebanon etc etc - they have the blood of their own countrymen/women on their hands, but its' just not in the Yank psyche to self analyse/criticise when flexing your military/monetary might and portraying yourself as the Good Cowboy is so popular and sooo effective.
The US made their own bed and are still sh!tting in it IMO. So they need a few hapless pawns like Hicks to stick it o good n proper.
How nice of the Oz govt to give them a footy in Hicks.
Right now the US is negotiating with the Taliban for them to resume control of AG and carry on with the evils the perpetrate agains women and non Taliban people. Not to mention feeding the worlds opium/heroin supply. The US will no doubt attempt to use finacial leverage to make the Taliban play (publically) the way they want them to be seen. Kinda just like the US id when Russia was around and following the Russian withdrawal. Dispicable and self interested US machinations.. again.
The thing about the Hicks story is it shines a very small light into the seedy and murky waters of US foreign policy and machinations. You don't have to be a conspiract theorist (hi peter) to be completely distrustful of anything reported as fact by the US govt.
And it comes down to this Paradox. If the evidence was so overwhelming - why didn't Hicks face a fair trail? Answer me that $40,000,000,000 question?
It's been 10 years since i watched the towers come down live with a feeling in my guts i have never felt before. My wife came home from work halfway through and i said to her. Oh god, you have to see hwat is happening, it is the worst thing imaginable...
The next day i said to her. Oh god i hope the US can actually stop and try to understand why this has happened to them.. and not go marauding through the middle east on a blood lust.
10 years later nothing has been learnt. The world is generally MORE ignorant than 10 years ago and to avenge 5ooo innocent US deaths 100s of thousands of innocent Iraqi's Afghanis etc have perished in thename of US justice.
Nothing whatsoever has been learnt in the last decade, nothing has changed and nothing will it seems.
I might just point out that OBL was regarded as a terrorist and was on the 10 most wanted list long before 9/11.
He was deemed responsible for a number or bombings on embassies and hotels and other western interests for over 10 years before 9/11 and it is inconceivable that Hicks was not aware of this. Particularly in light of the fact that Hicks writes home boasting that he has met OBL many times and has attended meetings or gatherings with him. He says that he doesn't speak Arabic and therefore wasn't aware what was being said at these meetings but although I believe him in that he doesn't speak Arabic, I think it is a complete lie that he was unaware of what was the message of the meetings and what OBL stood for. It would be like attending a meeting with the pope and then claiming that you weren't aware that the pope was a catholic because you don't speak italian.
In 1996 OBL openly declared war on the United States AND it's allies. That's us! Australians. That's 5 years BEFORE 9/11.
Therefore by running off and joining any armed force which was organised or financed or associated with OBL would by definition be joining up with a force which was at war with the US and its allies.
It is clear that OBL was associated with the group that Hicks was training with and it is clear from Hicks own letters that he knew it. I can't believe that they gathered to hear OBL recite poetry. The speeches were certainly an incitement to violence and war against the west. And if Hicks couldn't understand the language I'm sure he would have asked someone who could to explain it to him.
The problem was, there wasn't really any Australian law that concisely prohibited such behaviour. Up to this point it was probably seen that nobody would be so unreasonable to do that sort of thing and therefore a law against it was not necessary.
They were wrong, and since that time we now have over 50 pieces of new legislation and laws specifically prohibiting this and other odd ball behaviours.
And there's the problem.
Every new law and piece of legislation and security measure acts to shackle and restrict every person in the country, not just the idiots whose lunatic actions have made the laws necessary. So on that basis I have little sympathy for Hicks and his previous or current discomfort.
None of which explains pweedas what laws he broke. Saying nobody had ever thought of them before is bull. Terrorists have been around for yonks. There are all kinds of laws preventing people from doing other people harm. So there were all kinds of laws he could've broken ... but didn't. In Australia he has never been accused of committing any crime despite some 53 laws being invented after the event, as you rightly point out.
In any case, he wasn't ever held by Australians but by the USA and they decided that whatever laws he broke didn't apply to US citizens that they'd captured. Or British citizens. Seems their laws don't apply equally to all. Seems that only some nationalities can be terrorists.
What annoys me in all this is not so much what Hicks did - bad guys and idiots are to be found everywhere.
What really peeves me off is the way that our governments decided the law could conveniently be ditched when the going got a little hard. That a government could decide to hold and torture someone based on allegations and suppositions. That our government decided that was a good thing. And that so many people in this country seem to also think this is a Good Thing.
I thought the law meant something in this country. That it was supposed to apply to everyone equally and that it should prevent people being convicted without a fair and proper process. I thought that's what democracy was about. I thought we had people that died to build and protect those ideals. Seems not. Seems I may as well be living in North Korea.
One other thought... I heard Malalai Joya (former Afghan parliamentarian) said something on Qanda a few weeks ago that bears repeating. She said "... the silence of the good people is worse than the action of the bad people."
By the way pweedas - you'll be interested to know that the Brits are winding back their anti-terror laws. We should be pushing to do the same. Do you know that anyone can be held for no reason at all other than a suspicion that you may know something? For months in the Haneef case.
What D H (David Hicks
) says is that he met Osama Bin 20 times and that he new nothing of al quaida?????? WTF????
During the last WW lot of peeps met Adolf and new nothing about the Nazis?????
Sure! D H believes that we are all stupid non muslim sheep! We are lucky he got caught before becoming a martyr in Australia and strapping a few kilos of TNT on him and blow himself in a public area and do not tell me I am stupid because if you read his letters it is what he was (is?) happy to do for his brothers.
Terrorist believe they are above the laws so why should any laws apply to them when they get caught? Shoot to kill and do not waist the law courts for them!
) says is that he met Osama Bin 20 times and that he new nothing of al quaida?????? WTF????
Taliban and northern alliance and what they did to Hicks when he was in there hands are not relevant pweedas. The USA does have laws. Australia does have laws. Even laws governing war pweedas and the treatment of people in them.
BOTH governments chose build some artificial construct to actively try to get around the laws. In that regard we were no better than the people we were supposed to be fighting against.
Spot on S.O.G!
Who the fk are we and especially the US to assume the high ground.. when you play with poo you all get smelly! 
I seem to remember the ever wisened George W declaring war on the "Axis of evil' which included a whole bunch of sovereign states happily going about their own busines (and mostly not meddling in other's) and choosing not to be with em (or agin em as GW so eloquently put it) but just not to fall at the feet of US policy.
It was very conveneint to US interests to bunch em all together and intimate that they were all in on the 911 act. hell they sold it hook line and sinker to a US polulation (and other country's like ours) horrified at 911, and lusting for blood revenge.
Easiest conveniant lie ever sold.. EVER. 
90% of people bought it, no-one dared offer another opinion and Hicks was a tiny, tiny little pawn in the great lie, that has to date cost several hundred thousand more innocent lives than the 5000 in 911, and is setting up the next century of conflicts, hatred and war.
One of the 'evil do-ers' was Libya and one was Iran..
Funy how things change innit.
Libya is sorting their own sh!t out.. and the US can't bend over far enough to accommodate to Iran at the moment.
Anytime you want to draw a black and white line between the "evil do-oers" and the 'good cops', take a the time for a quick squiz back at 20th and 21st century history, particularly middle east history, and be amazed by just how many times each of the parties have swapped sides in the "with us or agin us" and the popular views fed to us by our great ally the US.
And we should trust them because..??? .
US is the biggest problem in the world today.. well was actually - China has surpassed the US in every way already and one day the US may even realise that too.
Tsk tsk Formula.. I think you are just being an anti Yank cynic
I don't know why you wouldn't have faith in the US vision of the future?? 
Peace justice and the American way. I'm totally on board with that and trust their vision for the world completely.
Here they are discussing a treaty in good faith with an Iraqi diplomat
Just look how good the US 'vision' has been for the average Iraqi, they don't get taught propaganda in schools any more.. there are no schools.
They don't get tortured by Sadam anymore, no the have far more sophisticated US 'intelligance' doing it now..
They don't have to worry about getting killed in the night by Sadam's cronies.. they are dead.. along with 100,000 (very conservatively) esitimated innocent civilians since the US barged in to create a democratic state...
Which is going really well from what the Pentagon tell me.
Time for my daily cerebral fluid flush..(Palinsocopy) don't want any ideas of my own getting in there!
So get funky
Your vision for the world is that of Bin Laden's 2IC
Got some funky pictures of his embarassing moments
Bush and his ilk may be far from perfect but until
people like you find fault with the islamist point
of view and get funky pictures of their imperfections
your days of freedom of expression are numbered.
So get funky
Your vision for the world is that of Bin Laden's 2IC
Got some funky pictures of his embarassing moments
Bush and his ilk may be far from perfect but until
people like you find fault with the islamist point
of view and get funky pictures of their imperfections
your days of freedom of expression are numbered.
Perhaps my freedoms are coming to an end, but most likely with right wing overlegislation boofhead..er boofta.
I don't recall saying Bin Laden or his ilk were tops.. but please point that out to me if I have erred.
Bush and co are far fa far far faaaaaaaarrrrr from perfect. And that my friend is a VERY BIG understatement.
I try not to generalise about religions. None are really my cup of tea - I see value in most but flaws in al because essentially they are guided by (often) corrupt humans/govt with other agendas and purposes than human happiness and welfare.
I have met beautiful people from most religions (including Muslims 3 months after 911 in Thailand who were incredibly gracious and kind) however, as i have said before, fundamental Christians nutters (like coke-toting-draft-dodging-utter fk up born-again Bush and co.) actually scare me as much as, if not more than fundamental Islamic nutters.
Why? Because the Christian nutters actually affect the media/politics and way of life in THIS country and most western countries (like good ol' US of A) and their influence is more insideous, wider and further reaching and informs exactly the sort of comment you make about the 'Islamic point of view' as tho somewhere it is written in stone that Islam is wrong and essentialy all Muslims are dangerous.
Not sure if you know but there are plenty of options out there in the world mate. Christian/western ideals are a drop in the world's oceans.
But unless you tune out from the US/christian saturation you probably won't ever realise that.
Do you ever stop to think the white trash scum bashing his missus at the bus stop is a western christian backgrounded person?
Probably not, but I bet every time you see someone looking middle eastern behaving badly "Kn Muslim scum" is right there at the forefront of your mind.
Think about why you differ there, actually think about it. Where did that come from?
Then get back to me about the "Islamic point of view".
I was lucky enough to know Muslim people growing up. Not close or anything but people my mum worked with. Lowly paid, hard working, close families. When i went to their houses and parties etc I had to eat all sorts of weird smelling/tasting foods (LOL - that I now love) and although they dressed 'funny' I was lucky enough to realise they are more like me than 'agin me'.
Islam has scary nutjob minorities, so do Chrissos (Norway on anyone else's mind here?) Hindus, and even Budhists etc etc.
Stop painting all the Muslims the same. It is ignorant, and fed to you by xenophobic morons like Bush/Murdoch/Howard etc.
The Islamic cleric (primary teacher - not running an AQ camp in case your are thinking it) I met on the train to Ayuthaya (Nth of Bankok) 3 months after 911 handed my wife and I a small photo album with a note in the front with (paraphrase as his words were better than mine will ever be) "All god's children are loved and all god's children should be happy".
In the album were pics of him on the same train with travellers from all over the world. Everyone of looked as happy in the pics as my wife and did in our pics with him.
It was a buzz to meet someone like that - especially so close after 911.
Get out there, experiance some non-western, non-christian ways of life and don't be so afraid mate. You just might be surprised at how 'human' most people are.
Does this woman deserve to be locked up, held without resonable trial and have stuff poked up her butt for the next 5 years?
It's not a serious question of course but i hope for her sake she is Christian (no doubt) and never strays too far from the US where they love a bit of waiving guns and RPGs around, it right there in the constitution.
Anyway it's good to see Mrs Hick's (or is it Jenna Bush?) is nearly ready to bring another well balanced individual into the world. Wonder if she is wearing slippers?
I know its not a popular view, but I think sometimes these countries are pretty bad without the US's involvement.
Fair nuff Formula, we may differ in some regards but you seem to be informed and draw your opinions from knowledge beyond the easily digestable headline and RPG pic and I respect that.
just hasn't worked out the lens caps are on. 
My money is nobody said anything for a minute.. or two.. waiting for him to realise the error, and by then it was too late. Shades of WMD/Iraq?
just hasn't worked out the lens caps are on. My money is nobody said anything for a minute.. or two.. waiting for him to realise the error, and by then it was too late. Shades of WMD/Iraq? I figured that might've been what they told GW Bush when he said he couldn't see through them.
