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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

Mark Webber back to usual form

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Created by evlPanda > 9 months ago, 29 Jun 2010
evlPanda
NSW, 9207 posts
29 Jun 2010 12:14PM
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www.abc.net.au/news/2010-06-28/webber-in-horror-crash/884058

da vecta
QLD, 2515 posts
29 Jun 2010 12:42PM
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That's a similar sensation to doing a back loop. (although webber had slightly more control than I)

pweedas
WA, 4642 posts
29 Jun 2010 11:24AM
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That looks like just plain old BAD driving.
There were only two cars, his and one other, and all he had to do was drive around it.
That's drive around it. NOT over it.

doggie
WA, 15849 posts
29 Jun 2010 11:28AM
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The Lotus braked earlier and Webber closing speed was 10-15kms better than Lotus. Webber never said that Haki was to blame. The footage really dosnt show the full picture of what happened.

mkseven
QLD, 2315 posts
29 Jun 2010 1:42PM
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pweedas said...

That looks like just plain old BAD driving.
There were only two cars, his and one other, and all he had to do was drive around it.
That's drive around it. NOT over it.


great in theory but at 300km/h?

pweedas
WA, 4642 posts
29 Jun 2010 12:30PM
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mkseven said...

pweedas said...

That looks like just plain old BAD driving.
There were only two cars, his and one other, and all he had to do was drive around it.
That's drive around it. NOT over it.


great in theory but at 300km/h?


Yes but that's what is supposed to make a good racing driver, rather than just the average hack that can negotiate the Saturday morning shopper carpack without writing off the family Commodore.
You can't make your good driving dependent on what the guy in front does because for a multitude of reasons he may not do what you would like him to do, or are expecting him to do.
Somewhere in the preceding few seconds to that impact, he made a bad decision, which by definition makes it bad driving.

I might add that I see exactly this sort of thing every week down the freeway.
Clowns following 2 car lengths behind the car in front at 100kph, rain hail or shine.
And every so often I come upon the inevitable results., a multiple rear ender and a 5 km long gridlock.

doggie
WA, 15849 posts
29 Jun 2010 12:55PM
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pweedas said...

mkseven said...

pweedas said...

That looks like just plain old BAD driving.
There were only two cars, his and one other, and all he had to do was drive around it.
That's drive around it. NOT over it.


great in theory but at 300km/h?


Yes but that's what is supposed to make a good racing driver, rather than just the average hack that can negotiate the Saturday morning shopper carpack without writing off the family Commodore.
You can't make your good driving dependent on what the guy in front does because for a multitude of reasons he may not do what you would like him to do, or are expecting him to do.
Somewhere in the preceding few seconds to that impact, he made a bad decision, which by definition makes it bad driving.

I might add that I see exactly this sort of thing every week down the freeway.
Clowns following 2 car lengths behind the car in front at 100kph, rain hail or shine.
And every so often I come upon the inevitable results., a multiple rear ender and a 5 km long gridlock.




Sorry pweeds I dont agree, @ 300kph is so different to 100kph for the most obvious reasons.

mkseven
QLD, 2315 posts
29 Jun 2010 3:23PM
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pweedas you cant even begin to compare racing with everyday driving.

Racing is so safe because drivers do know exactly what the other was doing and which line they are taking and at what point they will brake.

Webber screwed up by staying in the slipstream a bit too long, then it seemed like neither knew what the other was doing. Heikki stuffed up by braking in a position that gave webber no room. Unlucky for both but that's racing.

doggie
WA, 15849 posts
29 Jun 2010 1:29PM
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mkseven said...

pweedas you cant even begin to compare racing with everyday driving.

Racing is so safe because drivers do know exactly what the other was doing and which line they are taking and at what point they will brake.

Webber screwed up by staying in the slipstream a bit too long, then it seemed like neither knew what the other was doing. Heikki stuffed up by braking in a position that gave webber no room. Unlucky for both but that's racing.


+1

pweedas
WA, 4642 posts
29 Jun 2010 1:41PM
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mkseven said...

pweedas you cant even begin to compare racing with everyday driving.

Racing is so safe because drivers do know exactly what the other was doing and which line they are taking and at what point they will brake.

Webber screwed up by staying in the slipstream a bit too long, then it seemed like neither knew what the other was doing. Heikki stuffed up by braking in a position that gave webber no room. Unlucky for both but that's racing.


I agree, and I don't compare the two. But what is the same, is the accurate assessment of risk.
The fact that such a severe wipeout happened indicates that someones risk assessment was faulty.
Either Heikki stuffed up by braking unnecessarilly early or late and too hard, or Webber stuffed up by mis-reading the situation.

Heikki was in front and making driving decisions which he thought would keep him there. He has the right to do that so unless his decision was to purposely brake in such a manner so as to cause Webber to crash then it is hardly his fault.

Webber was behind and making decisions which he thought could put him in front. He has the right to do that so long as if the planned action failed, the backup plan cannot be to drive over the guy in front.

They were both lucky that the consequences were relatively light. It could well have been much worse.

doggie
WA, 15849 posts
29 Jun 2010 2:10PM
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pweedas said...

mkseven said...

pweedas you cant even begin to compare racing with everyday driving.

Racing is so safe because drivers do know exactly what the other was doing and which line they are taking and at what point they will brake.

Webber screwed up by staying in the slipstream a bit too long, then it seemed like neither knew what the other was doing. Heikki stuffed up by braking in a position that gave webber no room. Unlucky for both but that's racing.


I agree, and I don't compare the two. But what is the same, is the accurate assessment of risk.
The fact that such a severe wipeout happened indicates that someones risk assessment was faulty.
Either Heikki stuffed up by braking unnecessarilly early or late and too hard, or Webber stuffed up by mis-reading the situation.

Heikki was in front and making driving decisions which he thought would keep him there. He has the right to do that so unless his decision was to purposely brake in such a manner so as to cause Webber to crash then it is hardly his fault.

Webber was behind and making decisions which he thought could put him in front. He has the right to do that so long as if the planned action failed, the backup plan cannot be to drive over the guy in front.

They were both lucky that the consequences were relatively light. It could well have been much worse.


Yea it could have been worse (Senna) but the regulations on car saftey is what saved him, they really are awesome now compared to 10-15 years ago.

The impact into the tyre wall was hard he must have pulled Gs there!!

firiebob
WA, 3183 posts
29 Jun 2010 2:13PM
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I watched the race, Webber is a better driver in a faster car, the Lotus team are at the bottom and Red Bull are at the top of the game. Webber ended up behind the other car after he pitted for hard tires, when he tried to pass, the other guy blocked which he admitted to doing because he didn't want to lose his race position. The problem with that is he was never going to stay in front of Webber, the general thought from those a lot smarter than any of us in F1 is he should never have blocked a much faster Webber. It'd be different if there was not much in it between them like the guys up front.

(Racing is so safe because drivers do know exactly what the other was doing and which line they are taking and at what point they will brake) Exactly that's why no one would have expected the clown in the Lotus to turn in front of a much faster Webber

GalahOnTheBay
NSW, 4188 posts
29 Jun 2010 7:29PM
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mkseven said...

pweedas said...

That looks like just plain old BAD driving.
There were only two cars, his and one other, and all he had to do was drive around it.
That's drive around it. NOT over it.


great in theory but at 300km/h?


No I'm pretty sure attempts to drive over another car works about the same at 60km/h as it does at 300km/h

getfunky
WA, 4485 posts
29 Jun 2010 5:33PM
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If he had any nutz he's be on 2 wheels like Stoner instead of playing slot cars.

Maybe he should go play soccer.

doggie
WA, 15849 posts
29 Jun 2010 8:06PM
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getfunky said...

If he had any nutz he's be on 2 wheels like Stoner instead of playing slot cars.

Maybe he should go play soccer.


Na thats geh.

Gestalt
QLD, 14982 posts
29 Jun 2010 10:09PM
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lucky the car didn't catch on fire during the crash.

he would have been a webber bbq then.

elmo
WA, 8897 posts
29 Jun 2010 10:19PM
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HK was reported to have braked approximately 80m early, that for an F1 car is a country mile in braking distance +1 seconds early, when you are sitting 2m's away from the back of a car which can decelerate like an F1 (even the lotus) it's always going to end badly.

HK was 5 sec's a lap slower, Webber caught up around 150m in 3 corners it was never in the real world a race for position.

Fortunately next year I think they will be returning to the 105% rule for car speeds, which will remove the very slow from the field

evlPanda
NSW, 9207 posts
30 Jun 2010 12:52AM
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Are there any stats on Webber crashing? He just seems to crash ...so often. For a while there it seemed predictable.

BadAltitude
33 posts
30 Jun 2010 4:31AM
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GalahOnTheBay said...

mkseven said...

pweedas said...

That looks like just plain old BAD driving.
There were only two cars, his and one other, and all he had to do was drive around it.
That's drive around it. NOT over it.


great in theory but at 300km/h?


No I'm pretty sure attempts to drive over another car works about the same at 60km/h as it does at 300km/h


As futile as it was, HK did what he was entitled to.
HK only moved about 1/2 a cars width to the left - which actually gave MW a much wider route through, MW didnt really move the car wide enough one way or the other !! I think he expected HK to keep moving or to the left (as if to block the racing line) and he would drive through the space he just vacated.

What is mind boggling is why HK appeared to lift (he didnt brake)!!

Just goes to show 'Red Bull rally does give you wings@

petermac33
WA, 6415 posts
30 Jun 2010 6:29AM
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after it flipped it landed luckily on front, cushioning the force, then it landed on rollbar.

had it landed on rollbar first can't believe he would have survived without serious injury.

mkseven
QLD, 2315 posts
30 Jun 2010 9:34AM
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it's ok, webber has lots of experience with backloops- this wasn't nearly as spectacular as his writing off the merc clr's

Maybe he is trying to perfect them for the red bull nye festivities

Seriously though a properly landed fully planing err driving backloop would be mighty impressive [}:)]

grumplestiltskin
WA, 2331 posts
30 Jun 2010 9:54AM
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I think the arguments about avoiding accidents go out the window because "its racing".
By definition you are pushing the limits of the car and your skill to try and get to the front.
If you drove safely they whole way through the race then nobody would ever pass and the starting positions would be the finishing positions (excluding mechanical breakdowns).
If you are pushing your limits then a certain amount of crashes are to be expected.

Kind of like learning a new move when windsurfing, your first attempts as loops will inevitably end up in a crash.

doggie
WA, 15849 posts
30 Jun 2010 10:18AM
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evlPanda said...

Are there any stats on Webber crashing? He just seems to crash ...so often. For a while there it seemed predictable.


And gearbox problems, in the past I always thought it was his fault but the RBs havnt had that problem this year.

evlPanda
NSW, 9207 posts
30 Jun 2010 12:19PM
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doggie said...

evlPanda said...

Are there any stats on Webber crashing? He just seems to crash ...so often. For a while there it seemed predictable.


And gearbox problems, in the past I always thought it was his fault but the RBs havnt had that problem this year.


Not saying he's a bad driver, obviously the guy is 100x better than I could ever hope to be.

It's just that I can't think of anybody that has done so many back loops, or crashed on first corner as much as Webber, or had as bad luck.

elmo
WA, 8897 posts
30 Jun 2010 3:51PM
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The RB's still have reliability issues, the race before last MW was put back 5 grid places as the had to replace his "Suspect" gearbox before the race.

The joys of pushing the limits of technology and development

doggie
WA, 15849 posts
30 Jun 2010 4:06PM
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elmo said...

The RB's still have reliability issues, the race before last MW was put back 5 grid places as the had to replace his "Suspect" gearbox before the race.

The joys of pushing the limits of technology and development


Thats because they found metal filings in the g,box fluid

pweedas
WA, 4642 posts
30 Jun 2010 7:25PM
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Metal filings in gearboxes are normal for a gearbox which is about to self destruct.
It's always from the case hardened surface flaking off bearings or gears.
In critical applications like helicopters etc, they put in a chip detector so you get a few hours warning before it fails completely.
I don't know if racing cars have chip detectors, but it's easy enough to have a magnetic drain plug so any metal chips stick to the drain plug and can be seen when you change the oil.
I guess a racing car gearbox might get a few metal chips in the oil from constantly smacking it through the gears.

Minkee
QLD, 225 posts
1 Jul 2010 12:45AM
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yeah dog gears are pretty rough usually.
There's always a magnetic plug in a racing gearbox, that's one of the first thing you look at when they get serviced... a bit like the engine one, it gives you an idea of what to expect during the strip!

Gestalt
QLD, 14982 posts
14 Jul 2010 1:38AM
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good on webber!!!

showed true aussie grit with his back against the wall.

shear tip
NSW, 1125 posts
14 Jul 2010 9:08AM
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"Not bad for a number two driver"

grumplestiltskin
WA, 2331 posts
14 Jul 2010 10:46AM
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Might have been just what he needed, a poke in the eye so to speak, that made him think, "stuff this, I'll show the bastards"



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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...


"Mark Webber back to usual form" started by evlPanda