To kiters who have windsurfed I need more help. I know we have covered this before...
But yesterday I was struggling again to judge the angle and speed of the windsurfers relative to the wave lineup. They sit their like stuffed ducks, you have to pass them with your consistent speed, you crank upwind, get on the wave, then presto there's a wind surfer behind you (well in this case kind of, it was a 50/50 call really).
I was already on the wave, well and truly trimming down the line (hence was upwind initially of him), he started in the whitewash of of an already broken wave, then he scooted across the wave, bottomed turned and started shouted obscenities at me. Like you Fn dickhead, open ya Fn eyes ya moron, that kind of thing.
I am really struggling with the fact that they do have such inconsistent speed (this is a function of windsurfing and the technology I know that), and the whole lets go to south africa before I tack in. It is like they expect you to also sail to the horizon, when you don't need to?
I respect the differences and came in and spoke to a kiter who used to windsurf for years to get some advice. Just wondering if anyone else can shed some light on this as next time someone talks to me like that it will be on like donkey Kong.
Eppo
It's a line-up.
Sort of like you don't actually HAVE to stand behind other people at the checkouts in Woolies, waiting for your turn if you have more maneuverability. You can barge right up to the cashier if you want to.
However it is frowned on.
After kiting for a while you'll get the hang of figuring out which wave they will be on when the wave starts to break, so you can claim the ones that haven't already been claimed -- then you'll start getting smiles instead of the finger.
Been riding for 13 years, buddy, that's not the problem. I need some education on the mechanics of windsurfing. I also know there is a line up, with other kiters this is not a problem. it is the inconsistent speed and the fact that the definition of their line up alters considerably to ours as they need more time and space to create this 'line up'. Tips on adjusting to this.
upwind guy closest the peeling wave gets the right of way in down the line wave riding in my book. you are in the right the windsurfer is a kook in this instance.
as far as stalled v consistant speed. perhaps they are waiting for a better set to role in?
Was the wind light ? When it is wave sailors will not be planning. They will just wobble around try to get upwind and be standing there, stalled out the back waiting for a set, much like a surfer. windsurfers find it a bit annoying if they been wobbling upwind, tacking and stalling for a while to position themselves for set, which isn't as easy as it looks, for then a kitesurfer who is maybe catching lots of waves to be able to fly upwind hard and then get on the wave before hand. When light and the windsurfers aren't planning, when the windsurfer does finally get on a set, then if they have to pull out and over the back, they are almost certainly going to get smashed if a bigger one is behind. where as a kitesurfer could peel off and be back out much easier. Technically, I expect the kitesurfer DOES have right of way, but its nice to let the windsurfers get a few as it really is quite skilled sailing in the waves when its light and they will really appreciate it. Its good karma all round as a windsurfer is far less manageable getting out when light.
Although, he does sound a bit of an idiot shouting his head off if you had right of way.
Eppo you better not go to Mauritius during the euro's holidays then,
talk about agro windsurfers and the kiters arn't much better.
it can get a little frustrating watching a couple of waves go while windsurfer joe
gets set but after a bit you can get a feel for it and get the ones inbetween
But i tend to agree with NR , give a bit of respect and it usually comes
back x 2 and we do tend to catch more waves and have more fun
Sounds like Usain Bolt should have been told not to run so fast so the slowest guy could keep up.
And all skiers and snowboarders should keep the same pace down the slopes so everyone can catch the same amount of lifts back up to the top.
maybe the windsurfer slowed down to the speed of the wave and was in front of the swell waiting for it to break then you passed him to claim the wave???
I am with nr and carantoc on this. The poor pricks are like sitting ducks in light wind.
Mind you they don't give kiters any room when the wind picks up either
mmm he was down wind of me, on a fairly acute angle about say 30-40 m back (so you could see him if you looked over your left shoulder). I cut further upwind (to the right) and hit the wave at its peak honing left, he must have then built up incredible speed as I was doing this, but because I was already trimming left on the wave, he hit a bit of white water upwind of me...so I suppose at this instant he had right of way...he then did a big bottom curve to the left and because I had stalled and was sitting in the pocket we kind of caught up. I saw him at the last minute and shot off down wind fast so no probs, but then the abuse came...
My first reaction after the bald headed chicken Farqer abused me was to ask him 'what did you say a word rhyming with runt, but luckily I suppose he didn't here that and by the time he sailed up to me to abuse me some more I had collected myself, smiled and said fair enough. So I'm glad it turned out that way at least. My secondary thought was hang on, this guy is actually pretty good on a windsurfer, ridden this place for many years, show some respect, although he didn't deserve it of course. But needless to say i did. But even now I'm still irked.
I just found, as soon as the windsurfers came out, the water became far more dangerous, as you seem to be forever slowing down, avoiding their crab crawls, continually changing your tack - although I noticed this knob jockey wouldn't change his even if you did have right of way as per sailing rules, when on the tack. So you were giving way regardless of what tack you were on.
I also find, when they get speed up, they can come in on a real acute angle, so you may be upwind, taking off the speed to line up to the wave and bang they crank in on this acute angle, sometimes right in front of you, when the actual wave face is breaking further downwind, where you should be.
Another thing is you say there is a lineup. I find that with other kiters this line up evolves and is cool, but when wind surfers are in the water, we seem to have to then follow there line up - in terms of tack distance. Why should we have to change our line up, distance and angle for them...or is this just the way it is? There are certain spots, say lancelin, where I do this regardless though as it is still a very strong windsurfing spot and has been for years.
Still trying to nut this one out, I'll get there. And yes share, share, share...we have can maneuver more quickly.
Was all this windurfer and kitesurfer action happening in Mandurah yesterday, love to know?
I think some guys are just tools. irrestective of whether they kite or windsurf or surf or what ever.
I can remember an instance on a point break that peels both ways up and down wind. A kiter was well upwind riding the upwind wave. so i think ok i'll take the down wind line.
Upwind line guy then peels down wind under the white wash. So go ok he's coming downwind i'll get out of his way so I aim to scream more downwind. but there are 2 kiters. coming out through the waves so i'm boxed in and have to hold my line until a gap opened up and shot through. Upwind guy yells abuse at me. Yep i was in the wrong. But hell i did my best to get out of his way.
A little bit of courtesy goes a long way.
Another time i'm riding a wave and theres a kneeboard rider 30-50 meters upwind of me riding the same wave. its not peeling in a manner that I inhibiting this guy.infact theres white wash between us. I think its quite cool 2 dudes doing different discaplines riding the same way. I wave out in a happy manner and he screams abuse at me.
I'm thinking WTF.
Some people just think they own the joint.
Once you realize that poleys and baggers march to a different beat ...
you discover your own catchy tune.
Eppo
So many WA windsurfers believe they have evolved from being the bottom of the water sports since Kiters and SUP's have come along.
In every other state the vibe is cool as, but in WA, they have attitude.
I tell ol mate to calm the fk down and ignore him.
Next time just go deeper and then yell back.
Any actual physical tips on dealing with the crab crawl and inconsistent speed and also, when they build up speed all of a sudden and come in on such an acute angle?
I have no intention of bagging windsurfers, from my experience it's a bloody hard craft to learn and to handle when actually sailing. I just want to understand how to predict better where they will end up.
I agree with wave slave here, we had just kites out and there was a sort of creative line up, I actually got out of waves leaves way a fair bit to allow right of way, no probs, but I can predict his and other Kiters speeds, windsurfers have got me farqed. As soon as they came in the flow went to absolute sh1t. The lineup hey, why the hell do we have to slot into their conveyor belt lineup because of the inherent limitations of their gear design. ??
I also have no idea what they want... I've tried every scenario, still can't work out what they want...
But i do get a warm feeling when their all laid out like a rug sale in the impact zone :)
Eppo
Nice to see you actually care and want to get along so no way am I gonna criticise you.
You displayed understanding in the thread way back, when you realised we use the wave to cut upwind hard, so you may not see a windsurfer downwind of you who sometimes has ROW. But I think the problem in this example was lack of wind.
If it is windy it is all easy - we all do circle work, don't make ya outside turn until you are the last one (furthest out), and everyone is stoked.
The rule has always been first on wave owns it, and if you can't tell who was on it first (like it was simultaneous pickup , not just ignorance) then it is upwind/closest to peak has ROW.
The problem is if all the kiters are lit, and windsurfers are schlogging, then it is hard for the kiters to keep slowing down.
Local rules also in play here, in some proper wave places it is OK to deliberately stall for a wave, in most others it is not. If u r talking Dutchies then I reckon it is not OK to stall for waves cos it is too busy (there is always somebody behind u so stalling is bad!) and that's why I reckon WS dude was probably in the wrong.
No easy answer when one craft is moving real slow. I say WS dude was wrong in Eppo's example.
But I also say it is wrong Eppo when you say "It is like they expect you to also sail to the horizon, when you don't need to?"
Too bad, if you can get 5 waves to our 1 you still take turns by doing circlework. (I am talking when everyone is powered up). Do 30m runs thru the break if you want to but don't turn onto a wave if somebody has been on it from out the back for 200m.
It takes skill to pickup a GOOD set wave out the back and read it, pretty easy to snake on as it peaks just cos you can. That is the main one that sh!ts me badly, when it was a good pickup and I spotted it out deep, been on it for 30sec and just as it is peaking and I go down the line some wanker on the inside turns on it just downwind of me. Like WTF, bloke you just finished a ride 5sec ago 
Waveslave is a windsurfer..
your question eppo is easily answered.
Oh dude, oh man.. Windsurfers are cockpunchers so why even bother worrying about your dilemma..
jP out
.
One difference is that in some wind directions windsurfers can use the wave to cut upwind along the wave higher than kiters, so having got on the wave first, they may stay downwind of what looks right to a kiter and start cutting up to the pocket hard as the wave steepens.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said...
Eppo
Nice to see you actually care and want to get along so no way am I gonna criticise you.
You displayed understanding in the thread way back, when you realised we use the wave to cut upwind hard, so you may not see a windsurfer downwind of you who sometimes has ROW. But I think the problem in this example was lack of wind.
If it is windy it is all easy - we all do circle work, don't make ya outside turn until you are the last one (furthest out), and everyone is stoked.
The rule has always been first on wave owns it, and if you can't tell who was on it first (like it was simultaneous pickup , not just ignorance) then it is upwind/closest to peak has ROW.
The problem is if all the kiters are lit, and windsurfers are schlogging, then it is hard for the kiters to keep slowing down.
Local rules also in play here, in some proper wave places it is OK to deliberately stall for a wave, in most others it is not. If u r talking Dutchies then I reckon it is not OK to stall for waves cos it is too busy (there is always somebody behind u so stalling is bad!) and that's why I reckon WS dude was probably in the wrong.
No easy answer when one craft is moving real slow. I say WS dude was wrong in Eppo's example.
But I also say it is wrong Eppo when you say "It is like they expect you to also sail to the horizon, when you don't need to?"
Too bad, if you can get 5 waves to our 1 you still take turns by doing circlework. (I am talking when everyone is powered up). Do 30m runs thru the break if you want to but don't turn onto a wave if somebody has been on it from out the back for 200m.
It takes skill to pickup a GOOD set wave out the back and read it, pretty easy to snake on as it peaks just cos you can. That is the main one that sh!ts me badly, when it was a good pickup and I spotted it out deep, been on it for 30sec and just as it is peaking and I go down the line some wanker on the inside turns on it just downwind of me. Like WTF, bloke you just finished a ride 5sec ago
Okay you have given me something to work with here. Realising that a wind surfer picks up a lot of speed and may be working to get to the line-up from a long way out. This may give me a better sense of predictability. It wasn't light but there were holes in the wind, a decent swell with strong currents hence the crab crawl scenario, followed by crazy speeds at very acute angles to the wind.
Cheers for that, and yes with wind surfers in the water I must also be aware the line up - line if you like will change due to the mechanical differences. Okay will give that a go and allow for the increasing speed as they ride a swell line in from a long way out. Got ya.
Eppo
I have also seen this before. Windsurfers are schlogging so badly that they actually use the wave to accelerate and cut hard up wind to make some extra ground before bottom turning to ride down the line. They start down wind of you but can end up right underneath or even upwind of you as you set up. Very hard to deal with as a kiter sometimes but do my best. Some poleys don't realise this either and assume because you're so upwind you're giving up the wave.
