Actually that is a pretty concise way of describing what was happening. It does seem though we seem to be doing all the adjusting or is it just me having this feeling. Yeh he was indeed down wind by a considerable margin until I was along the wave face and presto there he was shouting of his big mouth. I did observe after this the acceleration and upwind angle at the last minute but needed it explained in words. I reckon I can deal with it now kind of like being patient with elderly drivers on the road. Lol. I know they are not all old but that might as well be. Lol. Nah each to their own shouldn't comment haven't windsurfed before never did see the point.
Firstly I think pole boarders stick very strictly to the basic rule of first on the swell has right of way. Even a second or two in most peoples mind gives them priority over you if they are downwind of you.
Also, a lot of these issues come about because kiters tend to want to ride waves in a huge variety of waves that even other kiters struggle to know where they are going or what section they are wanting to hit. It is safe to assume that a sailboarder wants to hit the closest lip down wind of them or if they are less experienced at least do there next turn as close as possible to it. However, what a kiter does will depend on his experience, board type and overall surf knowledge. I sail and kite and (apart from one particular knob who gets in everyones way intentionally) I never have any issues if I am the only one kiting with a bunch of sailors, but as soon as you throw in a few kiters on strapped surf boards, little directionals and god forbid, twin tips, it just turns into chaos. If there are too many kiters on the water I will take my pole board because I know it will be mahem on a kite and not even worth riding.
There are massive knobs in both sports and it really pays to get to know who they are and just try to avoid them.
Eppo you are riding a ferrari
....They are trucks.
Some truckers hog the right hand lane and piss everyone off, and some high performance drivers pull in front of trucks when they are braking.....
Some truckers get pissed off when they are trying to get a clean run through the light....
Good ferrari drivers can out manouvre the trucks without pissing them off, however they secretly have ferrari envy.
Just look at how many truckers check out the ferrari forum, and how many of us have ever checked out the truckers forum, and to the "point", love to post...
Just dont hit a truck with a ferrari, we come off second best.
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^^^ he can't answer cos he is busy with her now
Nice to see a kiter and windsurfer love-in with considerate debate re: ROW.
Pity the usual couple had to weigh in with a troll 
(EDIT oh and I don't mean Moons)
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^^^ That's why I think it was a case of not enough wind exacerbating it. If the windsurfers are struggling to plane, and the kiters are pretty comfy, it will always be hard as the windsurfers will be waiting for a wave to catch up to them, then use the apparent wind gained to drive hard upwind before going DTL. If there is always somebody on the wave behind it aint gonna work well
Once everyone is comfortably powered and getting upwind easily enough, there is no excuse - do circle work and first on wave owns it same as it always has been.
Ahh Beryl, an old dog teaching a young pup a few tricks
Eppo, not suggesting all the poleys stall for a better wave, it happens occassionally, I'm not a die-hard wave rider and only go out to MB and SP when it's a quiet day but you do see poleys stalling for better waves occassionally.
Similar thing happens on the flat water circuts, someone in front of you will trash a jump, instead of re-launching their kite and getting out of the way downwind ASAP some will go deeper in and try another jump to make up for it, or try another one on the way out, ruining it for the next one or two on the circut behind them.
As far as 'line-ups' go, I think the problem stems from kiters and poleys running their loops on different lengths and approach/exit angles. 10 kiters might run a wave circut with say 50 metres betweem each rider, poleys through necessity might need 100 metres. Unless kiters joing the same circut and spacing as the poleys there is going to be a clash. On a quieter day I don't see a problem with a kiter sneaking into the line-up and occupying the wave between two poleys, but only if it doesn't interfere with the next poley on his run in. On a busy day on the waves I probably wouldn't be out there and in the way, but I can only see it working if everyone sails the same circut, you go out the back and don't turn in until you are the furtherest one out, and you don't stall for a better wave once you are on final approach.
Actually you are right waveslave, again this adds to what I have observed, they do indeed lose a lot of ground going back out, never thought of that and it is a pain in the ass, when you are behind one and keep having to go further and further downwind, (this happened to me as well) and then you end up having to tack right out to the shipping lane again...well not that far, never need to go as far.
LOL, you are also right about surfers, all scurrying around the peak. There used to be considerate lineups, now and then you still find them, but rare now. Every dog for himself. Don't get me started on SUP riders, I don't think they can even spell Line-up. They will crack right through the middle of the 'line-up' no probs.
Surfers might have squatters rights over the term 'line-up' Waveslave, but by the sounds of it it's anything but. Sounds like every man, woman and child for themselves. Poleys and kiters line up (well most of the time) where necessary, it seems like a much more pleasurable way of sharing a particular break or a bit or precious flat water.
its a very dynamic situation when you mix different craft, different angles with different rules and dynamics
look at bolt on shore wave set ups vs cross off
In cross off:
You get wave speed plus wind = massive apparent wind as soon as the wind goes cross to cross off -
Any on shore angles and you get windspeed minus wavespeed = less apparent wind
and then you have different versions of the rules as interpreted by different personalities
Kites in general are more mobile than sailboards in 16 knots and under
However this is changing as a ton more wave sailing windsurfers are now getting bigger gear. A larger wave riding windsurf set up can be as or more mobile than most kites.
And in fact flat water racing boards with big heavy sails smoke them in 6 -12 knots (but dont jump for diddley) - although kite racing has evened this up- the boards are very similar looking to scaled down windsurfers
At spots like NW desert or margs you have to go a long way out to pick up waves - using the "rider who picks up the wave first gets priority" rule - which tends to be the rule at these a grade set ups
- the sailboards 6th gear of top end speed in chop (not in flat water - kites smoke sailboards there) often means that windsurfers can easily stick with fast moving swells (i'm talking 5ft plus waves that tend to move real fast in open seep water)
whereas some but not all kites get bounced by the chop and can sometimes fall off the back.
There are no simple answers to this i am afraid as you mix hypermobile fast accelerating kite / surfboard set ups with sailboards that tend to stall out a little more (although not when the wind is good) - the best approach is to try and take the aggro out of the situation by getting a culture together of people having fun on the water and spreading the wave count around - its happened in Surfing which is not as aggro now as it was in the 90s
I used to kite a lot and there are days when i am sure the Kite / surfboard would be so much better - usually cross on lightish wind with waist to shoulder high waves
Using your logic 'spose you just run over surfers as the "limitations of their chosen sport" means they can't pick up a wave 30m behind the break 
This thread was all about understanding each other so we can all get along but you just wanna contribute to the "drop-in-fk-the-others" mentality
Oh Markie,,,,
After soooo many years and endless hour of your life wasted on the forums, you would think you would have learnt not to take waveslaves bait.
kiters go over a wave and swoop their kite to maintain speed. windsurfers go over a broken wave and go downwind to maintain theirs. In marginal conditions with a short swell period this means 2 steps forward, one step back
Select to expand quoteReflex Films said...
its a very dynamic situation when you mix different craft, different angles with different rules and dynamics
look at bolt on shore wave set ups vs cross off
In cross off:
You get wave speed plus wind = massive apparent wind as soon as the wind goes cross to cross off -
Any on shore angles and you get windspeed minus wavespeed = less apparent wind
and then you have different versions of the rules as interpreted by different personalities
Kites in general are more mobile than sailboards in 16 knots and under
However this is changing as a ton more wave sailing windsurfers are now getting bigger gear. A larger wave riding windsurf set up can be as or more mobile than most kites.
And in fact flat water racing boards with big heavy sails smoke them in 6 -12 knots (but dont jump for diddley) - although kite racing has evened this up- the boards are very similar looking to scaled down windsurfers
At spots like NW desert or margs you have to go a long way out to pick up waves - using the "rider who picks up the wave first gets priority" rule - which tends to be the rule at these a grade set ups
- the sailboards 6th gear of top end speed in chop (not in flat water - kites smoke sailboards there) often means that windsurfers can easily stick with fast moving swells (i'm talking 5ft plus waves that tend to move real fast in open seep water)
whereas some but not all kites get bounced by the chop and can sometimes fall off the back.
There are no simple answers to this i am afraid as you mix hypermobile fast accelerating kite / surfboard set ups with sailboards that tend to stall out a little more (although not when the wind is good) - the best approach is to try and take the aggro out of the situation by getting a culture together of people having fun on the water and spreading the wave count around - its happened in Surfing which is not as aggro now as it was in the 90s
I used to kite a lot and there are days when i am sure the Kite / surfboard would be so much better - usually cross on lightish wind with waist to shoulder high waves
Yeh man goos points but a little more detail than my brain can handle this morning. But it helps when kiting in different wind and swell conditions.
I agree with talking and understanding each other, I have pieced together this info with my experiences at lancelin, greenhead, coronations and even scabs, and I actually totally get why I have been so bloody uncomfortable when polies are in the water, but I'm good now and will adjust.
Surf lineups are not getting better man, they are getting worse and now chuck in SUPS. Obviously you surf in a decent spot so keep it to yourself.
And mark I agree, waveslave will **** stirr, he's actually not a bad bloke and I've kited with him, he is mostly considerate to the flow, but give him an opportunity and he will push ya buttons man. Lol.
I was a windsurfer in waves for 29 years and kiter for the last 3
the first and main right of way, is first one up on the wave, whether you are a surfer or a wind user!!!
in practice the wind users playground is all the way to the horizon so how ever got the wave closer to the horizon has the right weather up wind or down wind( means nothing)
in surfing its the same but the practical playground is from the beach to the braking water line
so the second roll of how is closer to the pick have meaning more often
so the second less important roll is between equal the closest to the pick WHICH IS UN RELEVANT IN WIND USERS!!!(unless you gibe at the same time)
you have clearly dropped on a windsurfer how puts way more effort to get to the pick then you, and traveled on this wave way longer then you , and hes less waves then you.
you being more up wind mean's nothing!!!
well if you were first there is no question then ,its yours, accept my humble apologize
Yeh but here is where their is a grey area, sure I was on the wave first, but he was riding in the actual swell line, picked up immense speed, over the top of some white water, then bottom turned into where I was pusposeably stalled in 'in the pocket; and by then was upwind of me.
So I don't think it is as cut and dry as you say and what I have learnt is to be aware of the speed and acute angle they can build up before and right near the impact zone.
If I was in the same situation I would have cranked dwon wind a little more and not stalled it, and gave him the room he needed to crank the bottom turn. I would have then probably pulled off and gone around again. The mechanics of the sail board would mean he would eventually be upwind of me and arguably had the right of way.
eppo is that a set of blue tecticles hanging under your chin in your avatar? if so your winters must be cold indeed ;}
