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So, hypothetically...

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Created by theselkie > 9 months ago, 7 Nov 2018
theselkie
QLD, 555 posts
7 Nov 2018 12:13PM
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I inspected the Vagabond 31 with the electric engine yesterday and was very impressed.

So, hypothetically, if one were to remove the existing electric motor, what make and horsepower diesel would the brains trust suggest to install?

Or other options?

She is 6t, canoe stern, full long keel. Ah, and very pretty

Yara
NSW, 1322 posts
7 Nov 2018 1:29PM
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Lets say a 20 hp motor, and it is going to cost you around $13 to $14k installed. You might also need to replace the prop and get the stern gear sorted at the same time. Some would say 16hp is enough, but that does not put a big dent in the cost.
Once done, you need to work out what the boat would be worth. The classic logic is if you are going to keep the boat for many years, then a bit of over-investment is justifiable.

theselkie
QLD, 555 posts
7 Nov 2018 12:41PM
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Select to expand quote
Yara said..
Lets say a 20 hp motor, and it is going to cost you around $13 to $14k installed. You might also need to replace the prop and get the stern gear sorted at the same time. Some would say 16hp is enough, but that does not put a big dent in the cost.
Once done, you need to work out what the boat would be worth. The classic logic is if you are going to keep the boat for many years, then a bit of over-investment is justifiable.


Hi Yara

I do intend keeping the next boat for many years. I want it to be my forever boat, the one I die with. So I agree with you about over-investing being justified.


UncleBob
NSW, 1311 posts
7 Nov 2018 2:13PM
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Select to expand quote
theselkie said..

Yara said..
Lets say a 20 hp motor, and it is going to cost you around $13 to $14k installed. You might also need to replace the prop and get the stern gear sorted at the same time. Some would say 16hp is enough, but that does not put a big dent in the cost.
Once done, you need to work out what the boat would be worth. The classic logic is if you are going to keep the boat for many years, then a bit of over-investment is justifiable.



Hi Yara

I do intend keeping the next boat for many years. I want it to be my forever boat, the one I die with. So I agree with you about over-investing being justified.




Or you could look outside the box, existing electric motor if it is good then consider installing an appropriate sized diesel gen-set into the engine bay and run it as a hybrid. (so fashionably green )

EC31
NSW, 490 posts
7 Nov 2018 4:12PM
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My 31 has an ancient Yanmar 20hp that will still drive it to hull speed (7.2kn), even though it is over propped. A Yanmar 3YM20 or Vetus M218A will do the job. You will be paying a bit more as you need a gearbox, modified (or new) shaft, probably different prop and a new fuel tank.

lydia
1941 posts
7 Nov 2018 1:48PM
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Having just done a repower for a 30 footer it will be $20k to $25k to do properly.
Price difference on a 18hp vs a 27hp was stuff all as was the weight difference (about 18kg)
At 6 ton I would go 42hp.
Engine beds, electrics, fuel tanks and related stuff like sound proofing was the difference even where the engine deal included pong box, mulfler and pipes.
The best of material where used like V-bar sound proofing and Vetus hoses etc.


Yara
NSW, 1322 posts
7 Nov 2018 4:50PM
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That is a bloody nice boat. Pity they wasted their money on the electric drive. OK if you have it on a marina and only potter on a day sail, but this boat was designed to cross oceans.

Wildly over-priced in today's market, IMHO. Boats with electric motors are hard to sell, so they might accept a low ball offer if it has been on the market for a while. However, my guess is the current owner is well heeled, and may not be desperate to sell, but that is a wild assumption, and you could get lucky!

Again, IMHO, you do not want to go too large on the motor size, as then you will be running at very low revs for most of the time, and that is not good for diesels.

Ramona
NSW, 7757 posts
7 Nov 2018 5:58PM
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Select to expand quote
theselkie said..
I inspected the Vagabond 31 with the electric engine yesterday and was very impressed.

So, hypothetically, if one were to remove the existing electric motor, what make and horsepower diesel would the brains trust suggest to install?

Or other options?

She is 6t, canoe stern, full long keel. Ah, and very pretty


So what are the down sides with this electric motor?

SandS
VIC, 5904 posts
7 Nov 2018 6:47PM
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why not " invest" in a couple of solar panels and good batteries ?

theselkie
QLD, 555 posts
7 Nov 2018 6:31PM
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So, at present she has 8 x 210 ah AGM batteries on board. They are located under the quarter berth and under the cabin sole (not a fan of the latter location).

There is the port side cockpit locker and lazarette available for, perhaps a diesel generator as some folks have suggested.

At present, there is no solar or wind. With my lame European skin, it is essential I put a bimini on (purists please don't hate me ). So, with the frame I can look at solar and wind options. Would that be enough, though? Or would a generator/hybrid system still be needed for long-range?

I'm interested to hear opinions of what you guys would consider as a fair offer to make? Perhaps by PM so as not to ruffle feathers.




SandS
VIC, 5904 posts
7 Nov 2018 8:23PM
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I recon the vb is a nice yacht .
deck stepped mast = no water in bilge if all is good .
top notch fit out .
bow sprit for acers with forstay for genni , with furler for working jib at bow
full keel = cruiser

i would like to see all sails condition , hull out of water , also test motor/ batts for say 3 hours under load in water .

having said all that if i was able to purchase , i would offer , subject to testing and out of water survey ............................. fill in the blanks ?

boats are worth what people are prepared to pay .. and finally what people are prepared to accept .

LooseChange
NSW, 2140 posts
7 Nov 2018 8:37PM
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In my opinion the boat is highly problematic, as you point out it has no solar or wind or indeed any form of power generation. Apart from the motor there is a powered anchor windlass, Raymarine electronics package with AutoPilot plus any other powered devices, including lighting.

It is fitted with a Porta Potty, while Porta Potties may be alright for day sailing I don't think it is the kind of situation that you would want to deal with on a longer passage. A fixed head and holding tank may need to be allowed for.

Hit him up at $40k or even lower if you're feeling cheeky and see how much he baulks. No way is it worth anywhere near $55k which is why he has said 'negotiable'.

Says it's done two Atlantic and one Pacific crossing, ask it that with the electric motor in place. Here for you entertainment and education is a spec sheet on the motor. Cruising range* 34 - 19 nm, hope it never stops blowing.

https://www.elcomotoryachts.com/ep-20-inboard.shtml

MorningBird
NSW, 2711 posts
7 Nov 2018 8:53PM
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Very nice boat for day sailing in Moreton Bay. Not much use anywhere else IMHO.
Even with heaps of power generation and storage that motor would eat it all in one nights motoring, and unless you are happy going backwards in the current with the sails slapping you will want to motor overnight.
I admit to not being the most patient sailor but my frustration was extreme one night when MB's engine was out of action with a fuel problem and Havefun and I went 18nm backwards in 6 hours with the sails slapping as we rolled on the glassy ocean.
At only 31 ft and with the money needed to be spent to make her an offshore capable vessel I wouldn't value it above $25K.
I expect someone with a green bent who only wants it for local sailing will be willing to pay closer to his asking price than that.
But it is a nice looking vessel.

SandS
VIC, 5904 posts
7 Nov 2018 8:54PM
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" No way is it worth anywhere near $55k" that statement may or may not be correct

southace
SA, 4803 posts
7 Nov 2018 8:26PM
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Let it go.i m thinking.buy a yacht you can go sailing and motoring on asap

SandS
VIC, 5904 posts
7 Nov 2018 8:57PM
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" I wouldn't value it above $25K." you probs wont own the yacht then

LooseChange
NSW, 2140 posts
7 Nov 2018 9:30PM
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Select to expand quote
SandS said..
" No way is it worth anywhere near $55k" that statement may or may not be correct


I believe that statement to be fully in line with some of the other off the cuff comments that get thrown around in here.

southace
SA, 4803 posts
7 Nov 2018 9:38PM
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The main factor is the distance of your passages. If it's only a matter of getting out the heads that's fine but if the electric motor is using 50 amp hours I think you batteries will be well flat after a hour or so. Rather have the diesel to fuelled and ready and keep the battery/solar for house.

southace
SA, 4803 posts
7 Nov 2018 9:38PM
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The main factor is the distance of your passages. If it's only a matter of getting out the heads that's fine but if the electric motor is using 50 amp hours I think you batteries will be well flat after a hour or so. Rather have the diesel to fuelled and ready and keep the battery/solar for house.

MorningBird
NSW, 2711 posts
7 Nov 2018 10:31PM
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SandS said..
" I wouldn't value it above $25K." you probs wont own the yacht then


You got my point. Well done!

Yara
NSW, 1322 posts
7 Nov 2018 10:43PM
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Select to expand quote
theselkie said..
So, at present she has 8 x 210 ah AGM batteries on board. They are located under the quarter berth and under the cabin sole (not a fan of the latter location).

There is the port side cockpit locker and lazarette available for, perhaps a diesel generator as some folks have suggested.

At present, there is no solar or wind. With my lame European skin, it is essential I put a bimini on (purists please don't hate me ). So, with the frame I can look at solar and wind options. Would that be enough, though? Or would a generator/hybrid system still be needed for long-range?

I'm interested to hear opinions of what you guys would consider as a fair offer to make? Perhaps by PM so as not to ruffle feathers.






Offer whatever you think it is worth to you. There is no such thing as an embarrasing offer.

WRT the electric motor, this is the classic problem the general public has with understanding renewable power. Wind generators and solar cells are nowhere near enough power, (except the sails of course), to power the boat for hour after hour. You could get a big diesel generator, but what would be be the point? A smaller generator to charge the batteries for short runs would be possible too, but then you would have the noise for hour after hour....
Even if you were OK with the current design, there is the question of the condition of the existing batteries, and replacement cost. When I asked a Tesla car salesman what the battery replacement cost would be, he dodged the question!

cisco
QLD, 12365 posts
7 Nov 2018 11:58PM
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Forgetting about the boat and what it may or may not be worth, how about thinking about the energy required to move the vessel when wind is not what or where you want it, i.e 90% of the time.
Forms of energy:-
1. Heat energy, from the Sun or burning a chemical.

2. Chemical energy, from a chemical reaction between two elements such as carbon and oxygen which when catalyzed by spark or compression will ignite and convert to heat energy which when contained causes pressure.

3. Electrical energy which usually requires both of the above to make it happen.

4. MECHANICAL ENERGY which is what you really want to make that shaft rotate and the propellor to bite the water and push your boat along.

The mechanical energy required to push your boat along at hull speed for a given amount of time is a FIXED FIGURE and can be calculated in terms of horsepower, kilowatts, kilojoules, British thermal units or what ever.

So the viability or not of electric propulsion does not come to an opinion on the "green-ness" of it or any other opinion.

It is a scientific CALCULATION!!

The boat is designed with a certain amount of it's displacement in a certain location to be devoted to the means of propulsion and the fuel ie "STORED ENERGY" to power the means.

Therefore if the boat was designed to carry a weight of "X" being a combination of means of propulsion and fuel to carry it a distance of "Y" (anything less than 100 nm would be foolish), one needs to do the calculation to determine which method of propulsion come within the design factor of "X". Don't ask me to do the calculation because I know in my bones what the answer is.

One of the first laws of physics is that "Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only be changed from one form to another."

Simple analogy:- Compare an electric stove to a gas stove.

The electric stove requires CHEMICAL energy, converted to HEAT energy, converted to MECHANICAL energy, converted to ELECTRICAL energy then converted back to HEAT energy with losses all the way down the line.

The gas stove has CHEMICAL energy which you light to give you HEAT energy.

Have you got the picture yet?? Neuclear reactors have not been miniturised yet.

sirgallivant
NSW, 1531 posts
8 Nov 2018 1:36AM
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You are a philosophe Cisco!

Kankama
NSW, 827 posts
8 Nov 2018 6:48AM
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I am good friends with some very experienced sailors who went electric. They persisted with it for some time and are technically very talented but the lack of ability to punch on in sloppy conditions or motor for long distances led them to replace the, rather expensive, motor and go back to a diesel.

Bushdog
SA, 313 posts
8 Nov 2018 7:39AM
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If you do buy it, enjoy it!
Hang onto the electric motor for a while, and get the feel of it's comparative silence and immediate torque.
Fit the Bimini of your dreams and solar panels (you'll want them anyway) and see if they do extend the electrical power range appreciably.
Take your time looking for a good value diesel replacement - most manufacturers run specials at times, or maybe find one bought but not fitted by the original owner...
and make it yours:)

Windjana
WA, 405 posts
8 Nov 2018 5:17AM
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On ya Cisco.


Ramona
NSW, 7757 posts
8 Nov 2018 8:22AM
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LooseChange said..
In my opinion the boat is highly problematic, as you point out it has no solar or wind or indeed any form of power generation. Apart from the motor there is a powered anchor windlass, Raymarine electronics package with AutoPilot plus any other powered devices, including lighting.




I think it is a very pretty boat and I think the electric propulsion system is probably ideal for it's present location. Marina berth with shore power etc. Mentioning Westsail 32's in the blurb is probably not a good sales technique either. Self tacking jib is not going to be powerful enough in light conditions that Morningbird is talking about. For long distance cruising it is going to need a code zero especially if you are considering a shade house on the back. It is a lot of money for what is essentially a Westsail 32 and look how their prices have dropped lately.
This boat is way too big but is better value for money in the cruiser line. https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/ta-chiao-ct-38/224524

twodogs1969
NSW, 1000 posts
8 Nov 2018 8:40AM
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All this hypothetical crap from people's personal opinions.
Have a look at sailing uma on you tube they are live aboard cruiser and have electric and give honest opinion.

theselkie
QLD, 555 posts
8 Nov 2018 9:03AM
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Ramona said..

LooseChange said..
In my opinion the boat is highly problematic, as you point out it has no solar or wind or indeed any form of power generation. Apart from the motor there is a powered anchor windlass, Raymarine electronics package with AutoPilot plus any other powered devices, including lighting.





I think it is a very pretty boat and I think the electric propulsion system is probably ideal for it's present location. Marina berth with shore power etc. Mentioning Westsail 32's in the blurb is probably not a good sales technique either. Self tacking jib is not going to be powerful enough in light conditions that Morningbird is talking about. For long distance cruising it is going to need a code zero especially if you are considering a shade house on the back. It is a lot of money for what is essentially a Westsail 32 and look how their prices have dropped lately.
This boat is way too big but is better value for money in the cruiser line. https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/ta-chiao-ct-38/224524


Or this?

yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/van-de-stadt-36/224067

shaggybaxter
QLD, 2680 posts
8 Nov 2018 9:09AM
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G'day Selkie,
As you know, the one constant you can rely on is you will ALWAYS motor more than you planned!
Re: electric or other, it all comes down to the intended use doesn't it? If you're swanning about the bay with assistance all around you, who cares? If you're planning on going to NZ or South Pacific, I'd be researching the pants off this subject.
Best of luck to you mate, I hope you're enjoying the shopping!

UncleBob
NSW, 1311 posts
8 Nov 2018 4:47PM
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theselkie said..

Ramona said..


LooseChange said..
In my opinion the boat is highly problematic, as you point out it has no solar or wind or indeed any form of power generation. Apart from the motor there is a powered anchor windlass, Raymarine electronics package with AutoPilot plus any other powered devices, including lighting.






I think it is a very pretty boat and I think the electric propulsion system is probably ideal for it's present location. Marina berth with shore power etc. Mentioning Westsail 32's in the blurb is probably not a good sales technique either. Self tacking jib is not going to be powerful enough in light conditions that Morningbird is talking about. For long distance cruising it is going to need a code zero especially if you are considering a shade house on the back. It is a lot of money for what is essentially a Westsail 32 and look how their prices have dropped lately.
This boat is way too big but is better value for money in the cruiser line. https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/ta-chiao-ct-38/224524



Or this?

yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/van-de-stadt-36/224067


Nice looking boat, with a bit of haggling could be the one?



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"So, hypothetically..." started by theselkie