Select to expand quotegarymalmgren said..
Ok, surf lifesavers don't wear PDFs. I get that.
But, they also don't wear shirt, jacket, pants, socks, shoes. beanie . and gloves.
I don;t know about the rest of you, but I don's sail with only budgie smugglers in winter.
gary
I’m not saying don’t wear PFDs - I’m saying that in some situations they can be a hindrance. In others they can be a lifesaver.
I can get my wet weather gear off in the water. In some situations you should definitely leave it on, but in other situations I’d like to be able to swim fast and easily and that means not being encumbered.
I’ve read a bunch of accounts where people doing courses were shocked at how hard it is to swim in sailing gear and a PFD. Personally, I wouldn’t like to be at the mercy of the waves and tides like that. So just as one goes for a few swims over winter to make sure you don’t suffer cold water shock (which can easily kill you in your PFD) IMHO one makes sure that you’re OK getting your gear off in the water if you need to.
If we’re going to really prize wearing safety gear, then shouldn’t one ditch the normal kit and wear a thick wettie and full survival kit, plus a full face helmet which protects against boom strikes etc and helps stop splash drowning? So where does one stop?
Select to expand quotecammd said..
It would be a big swim from out the back at wide bay bar or jumpinpin. I think I would rather have a jacket than not.
Btw. I didn't say lifesavers don't train with a buoyancy aid I said they don't rescue without a buoyancy aid.
Why is that, why don't they just duck the person they are saving under waves while swimming them back in rather than let them get pummeled by breakers....We all know why because floating is better than sinking. I stand by my call of BS.
But if I’m crossing a bar alone I’m not rescuing anyone. If you are doing a rescue you use rescue gear, if you’re not then you don’t have to. Simples.
If I end up in the water with my crew on a bar then I’d rather they can do what they do for fun and which they have experience at - which is swimming in the surf without a PFD - than suddenly throw them into a situation they have never done, in which they are doing something that basically no one does - which is swimming in the surf with a PFD.
If it’s BS then tell the technical expert from Surf Life Saving I spoke to that he doesn’t know his own job. If wearing a PFD in the surf is a good idea, then why don’t the life saving authorities promote it at normal surf beaches for normal swimmers?
I’m not telling you or anyone else not to wear a PFD, and I wear one myself quite a bit. What I’m saying is that they can cause problems, that the promotion of them is overly simplified and ignores those problems, and that personally I make sure that I don’t have to rely on one. It seems far, far safer to be able to swim well in surf without a PFD than it is to rely on a PFD keeping you safe. In the same way although I’m in favour of having gear to use in MOB situations, I don’t think it’s a good idea for someone in the water to just act like a passive sack - I want to be able to pull myself back on board in case the Lifesling, stern platform, swimming ladder, halyard and lifting tackle fail. YMMV.
Our fitness and ability to move through the elements is arguably a vital part of being safe, and the rise in old and less fit yachties who rely on passiveness and technology is arguably a major reason why we seem to be seeing so many incidents,
Select to expand quote
Yeah got to point 4, that was enough. It would be good if we had a repository of these, maybe Laurie could do a safety section.
Been a while since you posted, have you been sailing?
Interesting read - I guess it will be a Roshart test. I will see it as a reminder to wear a lifejacket when sailing around normally, which is what I do offshore. I still reckon that this doesn't prove anything about safety in a bar and breaking waves and surf. Different situations.
Select to expand quote
Very sobering reading that report. Although I have never had to do an actual MOB I could picture the stress and difficulty from the practice ones I've done.
I can't recall hearing a tack called a granny gybe in general use. I googled it and it is a valid term, I've just never heard it used as a normal term for a tack. Is it common?
the expression has been around for a long time
if you are going downhill and need to gybe, but for whatever reason (usually safety) elect to come up on to the wind, tack, and then bear away on the other gybe, this is a 'granny' as in what your granny might do (instead of a 'real sailor'
cheers,
Ahh yes. I recall we used the term a fair bit bringing the TP52 Yendys back from Southport short handed many years ago.
Age and memory!!!
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..Yara said..Chris 249 said..
Yes, the fact that he had no sails ready to go and was towing even one dinghy shows terrible judgement.
On the other hand, from personal experience a good outboard can be an excellent way of powering a boat even in routine and significant offshore use IF the setup is done the right way. It shouldn’t be ruled out as a realistic way of re-powering an older boat. A good outboard well setup would often be far safer than an ageing diesel in poor condition.
Outboard in a well is a good set-up, the rudder can be behind the prop, plus there is a degree of motor swivel available, so good directional control. I sailed my Bluebird 22 offshore and across bars with that system with no problems. On the other hand, even with the correct set up on a transom mounted outboard, I had an embarrassing failure on the Pittwater bar on a fine, windless day, when the lumpy sea lifted the stern out of the water, the engine revved high, the stern dropped, and the prop hit the water and sheared the safety shear pin. Even though I had a spare shear pin, there was no way to fit it on the water. Got a tow back to the ramp, so no real problem, just teasing from my family. Would be different if we were crossing a real bar.
Actually in my 28’er the outboard wasn’t installed in a well but was (IMHO) well installed as in properly installed - sorry for the poor wording. Having a deeply-immersed outboard (ie an ultra long shaft rather than a long shaft) and a system that allows access to the prop and all other parts of the donk are parts of a good installation IMHO. In my case the OB was on a through-transom mount that was installed on traveller tracks. When not being used, it was tilted and then rolled forward so that the powerhead and prop and all in between could easily be worked on because they were actually inside the cockpit. Because the outboard tiller extended into the pushpit area, there was no steering problem under power because you could steer the outboard and rudder at the same time, spinning like a top and actually making sternway.
No system is perfect but an outboard has advantages like being able to clear the prop easily - something that I miss with inboards because I’m a complete clot when it comes to getting lines around props. Oh dear….
You had a great outboard system. Most are on brackets way past the transom, and not "getattable" from the cockpit without leaning far over the taffrail. Even the spring loaded brackets can be a pain- get the right immersion when down, then you cannot lift the prop out of the water when tilted. Unfortunately a lot of after market systems with failed inboards are of the crappy type. Fine for getting on and off the mooring, but no good for a bar crossing.
I hadn’t heard about that incident. Very sad
Having read the inquest it seems surprising that it came to the finding that a PFD would likely have averted the sad outcome. Obviously I wasn;t there, but the issue of splash drowning of an exhausted person with heart issues doesn’t seem to have been covered in the report. As John Bond, ex-USN and head of US Sailing’s safety committee - which does excellent work - said to me, if you’re unconscious, all a PFD will do is help them to find your body. It’s very well accepted that if you are exhausted or injured then your body will tend to turn around so that you face the chop, and the splash in your face can and often will lead to fatal inhalation of water.
The major problem of getting someone back aboard was highlighted once more, and one of the things that the concentration on PFDs seems to ignore is that they are, at best, only part of the whole issue of MOB recovery. The problem with the inflatable MOB pole could have been very significant - you can’t even buy a rigid pole in Oz these days and I’m making one because of the known problems with the inflatables.
The coroner found that sailing is a dangerous sport, but how is that defined? To make a logical decision about that would surely require analysis of the number of people who sail; the number of injuries they receive; and how that compares to the accident rate of people who do not sail. Since no one has done that, it’s not (with respect) logical to claim that sailing is dangerous. Yes, sometimes people get hurt and die, as I know very well. But people get hurt and die when driving, when working, when sitting in the bath. The mere fact that some people doing a reasonably popular activity are harmed, while said, is NOT proof that the activity is dangerous.
If one is going to classify sailing as a dangerous sport, then surely merely advising for PFDs isn’t going to really help. If it’s a dangerous sport then we need a proper survey of safety gear, including head protection and MOB kit, and not just the well-worn cry “wear a PFD”. And if it’s a sport then almost by definition it’s physical, and people should assess their fitness and not go out if they have health issues that may contribute to their death as in this sad case. And if it’s a “dangerous” sport then don’t do it unless you have worked at your reflexes and your physical agility and ability.
I’m gunna sound like a cranky old fart, but when I started racing offshore in the ‘70s the physical side of sailing was stressed - how to hold on, how to keep your head down, why you shouldn’t stand up, etc. That doesn’t seem to be taught in the same way these day - instead people are worrying about gear to save you from the consequences of ignoring that stuff. And the fact that we are, on average, older and less fit is being ignored. If you race windsurfers in Europe you need to have a check from your doctor. If you scuba here, you need a check from your doctor. If sailing is a dangerous sport then if we are going to require all sorts of gear then surely we should also require medical checks. The concentration on PFD use, while ignoring health, MOB gear, MOB drills, PFDs with splash covers, head protection etc seems illogical.
I didn’t realise James Glissan was an expert on rescue, although from the couple of times I met him I may vaguely recall that he did some RVCP work. Sounds like he’s done a lot of it.
Select to expand quoteYara said..Chris 249 said..Yara said..Chris 249 said..
Yes, the fact that he had no sails ready to go and was towing even one dinghy shows terrible judgement.
On the other hand, from personal experience a good outboard can be an excellent way of powering a boat even in routine and significant offshore use IF the setup is done the right way. It shouldn’t be ruled out as a realistic way of re-powering an older boat. A good outboard well setup would often be far safer than an ageing diesel in poor condition.
Outboard in a well is a good set-up, the rudder can be behind the prop, plus there is a degree of motor swivel available, so good directional control. I sailed my Bluebird 22 offshore and across bars with that system with no problems. On the other hand, even with the correct set up on a transom mounted outboard, I had an embarrassing failure on the Pittwater bar on a fine, windless day, when the lumpy sea lifted the stern out of the water, the engine revved high, the stern dropped, and the prop hit the water and sheared the safety shear pin. Even though I had a spare shear pin, there was no way to fit it on the water. Got a tow back to the ramp, so no real problem, just teasing from my family. Would be different if we were crossing a real bar.
Actually in my 28’er the outboard wasn’t installed in a well but was (IMHO) well installed as in properly installed - sorry for the poor wording. Having a deeply-immersed outboard (ie an ultra long shaft rather than a long shaft) and a system that allows access to the prop and all other parts of the donk are parts of a good installation IMHO. In my case the OB was on a through-transom mount that was installed on traveller tracks. When not being used, it was tilted and then rolled forward so that the powerhead and prop and all in between could easily be worked on because they were actually inside the cockpit. Because the outboard tiller extended into the pushpit area, there was no steering problem under power because you could steer the outboard and rudder at the same time, spinning like a top and actually making sternway.
No system is perfect but an outboard has advantages like being able to clear the prop easily - something that I miss with inboards because I’m a complete clot when it comes to getting lines around props. Oh dear….
You had a great outboard system. Most are on brackets way past the transom, and not "getattable" from the cockpit without leaning far over the taffrail. Even the spring loaded brackets can be a pain- get the right immersion when down, then you cannot lift the prop out of the water when tilted. Unfortunately a lot of after market systems with failed inboards are of the crappy type. Fine for getting on and off the mooring, but no good for a bar crossing.
Yep, I stole it from quarter tonners. :-)
The tragic case Lydia linked to is an indication of the complexity of these issues. They got a line around the prop and the US Sailing repository of MOB cases indicated that this was very common, as do other accounts. Normally a good inboard is better but if you’re in a life and death situation with a MOB then an outboard that can allow the prop to be cleared and the boat to turn on the spot is great.
Select to expand quoteJonE said..
Yeah got to point 4, that was enough. It would be good if we had a repository of these, maybe Laurie could do a safety section.
Been a while since you posted, have you been sailing?
US Sailing did an excellent job in terms of having a repository of MOB drills. They used to give medals out for good recoveries although IIRC John Bond, the ex navy guy who ran it, said that the medal was mainly a motivator to get people to write reports for the repository.
They still have good info, including MOB reports, on their site but the link don’t work - just Google US Sailing Safety Reports. Also Google their Lifesling MOB reports. They are heavily in favour of Lifeslings from their studies, which include practical tests. If I recall correctly, the things that struck me when I last looked at the MOB reports were;
1- bowpeople, who are more at risk, go over surprisingly rarely. That’s not surprising in some ways - we are, after all, gods of the sport and examples of perfection in every way although perhaps I’m a tiny bit biased. But the serious thing is that bowpeople are chosen for their physical ability, often trained for it, in a way that the mid and afterguard often aren’t.
2- Lots of boats get lines around props during recoveries, and it can kill the MOB. When I was a tacker we lost a stick at 3am on a nasty offshore race, the skipper sent two separate teams around the boat to independently look for lines over the side. It was a damn good idea. The other thing is that it’s arguably dodgy to rely on being able to pick someone up under power because your prop may be stuffed;
3- Getting someone back aboard is a major problem. Even if they’re in a PFD, where do you clip a halyard? Will that part of the PFD take the strain? How do you clip onto it? If they are hypothermic, when they are pulled out of the water warm blood moves to the legs so they may not survive - do you have a plan and the gear for that?
Eons ago I did some research on this area with people like Bond. That’s one of the reasons I’m concerned about PFDs - not that they are bad, but that the research indicates that they are only a small part of a complex issue and shouldn’t be promoted as a major part of it.
PS - I just scrolled through the US Sailing Lifesling reports. The first case I stopped at referred to a case where "The crew managed to locate him and get him alongside. They then attempted to lift him aboard with a boathook. However, the boathook pulled his PFD off, he drifted away, and the crew lost sight of him. A Coast Guard helicopter
recovered the body two hours later."
A classic case - ues, he had a PFD. No, it did not save him because the issue is far more complex.
You are all going to love this one.
www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/decision/19dffb617e142d46d0bc12a8
I tried reading it - seemed like someone forgot to read the bit in the sailing instructions where it says that it is the responsibility of skippers to race. Maybe we should amend it to say "all sailors".
Bugger people who sue.
Select to expand quoteJonE said..
Yeah got to point 4, that was enough. It would be good if we had a repository of these, maybe Laurie could do a safety section.
Been a while since you posted, have you been sailing?
Did a lot last year, so been earning frequent sailing miles for the next 10 months.
Could be a busy programme up to next Easter.
Select to expand quoteKankama said..
I tried reading it - seemed like someone forgot to read the bit in the sailing instructions where it says that it is the responsibility of skippers to race. Maybe we should amend it to say "all sailors".
Bugger people who sue.
From a quick check, it’s that the skippers and club are bound by a contract (which has been accepted law since the 1890s) and that therefore they are bound by the waiver contained in that contact, and by the risk warning. However, a crew (like the one in this case) who has a Sail Pass completed for him is not made aware of the waiver and risk warning, and therefore they don’t apply.
Select to expand quoteMorningBird said..
Very sobering reading that report. Although I have never had to do an actual MOB I could picture the stress and difficulty from the practice ones I've done.
I can't recall hearing a tack called a granny gybe in general use. I googled it and it is a valid term, I've just never heard it used as a normal term for a tack. Is it common?
Grannying is very common in dinghy racing. It's the girly way to avoid taking a swim from a badly executed gybe. In Finns and other single handed sailing dinghies it is generally accepted that it is just as quick to gybe, capsize and recover and continue compared to grannying. But sailing in a winter series in a strong breeze I would prefer to granny!
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..
1- bowpeople, who are more at risk, go over surprisingly rarely. That’s not surprising in some ways - we are, after all, gods of the sport and examples of perfection in every way although perhaps I’m a tiny bit biased. But the serious thing is that bowpeople are chosen for their physical ability, often trained for it, in a way that the mid and afterguard often aren’t.
Word!!!!!
A few years ago, US Sailing did a report after a series of MOBs (some fatal)
Most dangerous postion on a boat?
Having a piss off the stern particularly at night by off watch crew coming on deck.
Hence boat rule, if you can't swim back to the boat , use the head.😎
Dinghy sailing in the UK, Chicken Gybe, is the method by which members of both genders avoid gybing in conditions where a swim would end the fun and send participants back to the clubhouse for an early shower.
Such conditions include, but are not limited to very cold water, 30 knots of breeze, inexperienced crew.....
I cannot imagine a quick tack and bear-away in a Finn or any other boat being slower than a swim.....
So I went to register for SailPass, which I’ve done before but only when I’m skippering and therefore will be bound by the RRS, wsivers etc.
I couldn’t see anything about a waiver or risk warning. So from my quick check it looks like Australian Sailing may have made a very significant mistake with this system.
Select to expand quotelydia said..
A few years ago, US Sailing did a report after a series of MOBs (some fatal)
Most dangerous postion on a boat?
Having a piss off the stern particularly at night by off watch crew coming on deck.
Hence boat rule, if you can't swim back to the boat , use the head.😎
I’ve sailed with guys who just let loose in the cockpit when going upwind under No. 4 and a reef. It all washes out quickly in a half tonner headed south.
Those stainless steel hospital devices can come in useful too.
Just sent to me by another member….
ballinanewsdaily.com.au/2026/05/yamba-to-ballina-bar/
I don't understand the debate, when did wearing a PFD and swimming become mutually exclusive? That's what inflatable PFD's are for. If you can swim, you can swim with a manual pfd on (I'm referring to not inflated).
When you've run out of gas then inflate the bloody thing.
Salty thanks for the update. Unfortunately the circumstances that are coming to light are not painting the authorities policies favourably.For the record I like our local blokes but it's the higher ranks that call the shots. Boating safety officers being directed to move unseaworthy vessels on... if the axe does fall I bet it won't be in pit street.
So with Ballina, lets look past the media spin by MRNSW and the local authorities.
Let’s look at the legal framework and the primary safety obligation. (Rescue craft are not exempt)
So for the master, look at the first limb:
Non self righting boat that can’t recover from knockdown
Low AVS of vessel (RIBS have a long righting arm to about 40 degrees that then diminishes very quickly by 60 degrees)
Low down flooding angle (only about 40 degrees)
Opening side windows not designed to survive knockdown
Then second limb:
Elderly crew
Voyage in the dark on a coastal bar where wave buoy down coast is recording over 5m wave height.
But the master proceeds.
The best evidence suggests that the rescue vessel got caught side on, lost windows and down flooded then capsized.
So all predictable given the design and construction of the vessel.
Flame away!
If the vessel that was being rescued was impounded instead of being moved on none of those lives would have been lost.
