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What you can do with unlimited money: Americas Cup

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Created by yoyo > 9 months ago, 5 Feb 2010
yoyo
WA, 1646 posts
5 Feb 2010 1:00PM
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America's Cup is live in a few days (8th 10 & 12th)

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WWW.AMERICASCUP.COM
The official America's Cup website keeps you posted with news reports, feature stories, videos and pictures and all the official information of the 33rd America's Cup in English, Spanish and French

LIVE VIDEO STREAMING
For the first time in the history of the America's Cup, races will be broadcast live free of charge on www.americascup.com. Video feed will be supplemented (in French and Spanish) with a Live Ticker animated by the best sailing experts

sausage
QLD, 4874 posts
5 Feb 2010 3:08PM
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A good friend of my brother, Joe Newton (Yeppoon boy) is a trimmer on this beast. It is an amazing machine and (cost aside) I think it's great to see the most modern technology fighting for the cup.



Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
5 Feb 2010 4:15PM
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Please excuse my ignorance, but...

How better (rough percentage) will the multihulls perform compared to single hulls?

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8355 posts
5 Feb 2010 4:56PM
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Wouldnt it be nice to be able to get going that well in those sorts of breezes?

sausage
QLD, 4874 posts
5 Feb 2010 4:26PM
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sboardcrazy said...

Wouldnt it be nice to be able to get going that well in those sorts of breezes?


You can.........................you just need a long mast, big boom, 20square metre sail and a really big weight jacket and you'll be planing in no time.

PS - notice how the rudders are very much like a slalom fin in profile (just slightly bigger)

Bender
WA, 2236 posts
5 Feb 2010 3:26PM
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they might be quick in a straight line but i dont think we will see any tacking duels

mr love
VIC, 2425 posts
5 Feb 2010 7:11PM
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Impressive but!!!! Isn't America,s Cup match racing? This will be drag racing.

CJW
NSW, 1731 posts
5 Feb 2010 7:19PM
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Sailhack said...

Please excuse my ignorance, but...

How better (rough percentage) will the multihulls perform compared to single hulls?


An absolute metric s@#tonne, particularly when it's light. Actual speeds are a closely guarded secret at this stage but i've heard BOR90 has achieved 15kts in 5 kts of wind and over 36kts in 12kts of wind and i've heard it's done more than 50kts. What weight you give to those numbers is anyones guess....but if you've ever watched a video of it you'll know they aren't fantasy. They are numbers that a sailboard can only dream of, let alone a monohull.

It's a hydrofoiling trimaran, in all honestly given the right conditions I reckon the world speed sailing record would be in trouble.

All I know is it's going to be the most exciting cup in a long time...despite it effectively being a race decided by who is willing to spend the most money.

sausage
QLD, 4874 posts
5 Feb 2010 6:37PM
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A little birdy told me that Alinghi will be embarassed very quickly once they start racing. Only a couple of days to wait to see how true this is.

Richiefish
QLD, 5612 posts
5 Feb 2010 10:34PM
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communication must be difficult on those boats ? "hello ! you over there on the starboard hull !!! ....boat speed 30 knots , prepare to jibe!!!"

latedropeddy
VIC, 417 posts
6 Feb 2010 12:33AM
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After all the years of legal battles about location, boat type etc, I am so stoked that this is about to happen! Nothing like getting 2 billionaires - Ernesto Bertarelli, Swiss entrepreneur, former owner of biotech giant Serono VERSUS CEO and founder of ORACLE Corporation Larry Ellison duke it out for the cup and throw some serious dollars into the effort.

what global financial crisis?

This is going to be AWESOME (if they hold together)

Gestalt
QLD, 14969 posts
7 Feb 2010 11:24PM
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i'm with martin on this one.

yes i'll watch it and yes i'll feel the hype,

but, what a load of crap! it's supposed to be match racing.

next cup i wanna see antione albeau enter!!!!

he's even got his lightwind kit sorted now.

jp747
1553 posts
8 Feb 2010 12:44PM
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mr love said...

Impressive but!!!! Isn't America,s Cup match racing? This will be drag racing.


got that right mr. love..am all for technology but a cat and a tri!i wonder what the milling would be like before the start they'd be at least 50mtrs away to avoid collisions

swoosh
QLD, 1929 posts
8 Feb 2010 7:14PM
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Gestalt said...

i'm with martin on this one.

yes i'll watch it and yes i'll feel the hype,

but, what a load of crap! it's supposed to be match racing.

next cup i wanna see antione albeau enter!!!!

he's even got his lightwind kit sorted now.




i reckon he'd be lucky to be in the same timezone as bor90 or alinghi5 at the end of the race.


Gestalt
QLD, 14969 posts
8 Feb 2010 8:30PM
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^^ strongly disagree there

the hydro fin on the big board was a joke but seriously there aren't too many boats that can beat a windsurfer around a course. it will be interesting to see the data from the races. a top of the line formula setup only costs around 10-15K and that makes the american cup boats look like a massive waste.



i know from my own experiences cats and trimarans just can't go upwind as high or fast.

bc
QLD, 708 posts
8 Feb 2010 8:39PM
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Gestalt said...

^^ strongly disagree there

the hydro fin on the big board was a joke but seriously there aren't too many boats that can beat a windsurfer around a course. it will be interesting to see the data from the races. a top of the line formula setup only costs around 10-15K and that makes the american cup boats look like a massive waste.



i know from my own experiences cats and trimarans just can't go upwind as high or fast.

You have to be joking mate, when was the last time you went up against a big cat or tri upwind . We are not in the same league they can do better than 20 knots upwind higher and faster.

CJW
NSW, 1731 posts
8 Feb 2010 10:01PM
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Gestalt said...

^^ strongly disagree there

the hydro fin on the big board was a joke but seriously there aren't too many boats that can beat a windsurfer around a course. it will be interesting to see the data from the races. a top of the line formula setup only costs around 10-15K and that makes the american cup boats look like a massive waste.


You taking the piss? Have you any idea of the sort of VMG these boats pull compared to a windsurfer in the windspeeds they are racing at (<20kts)? Like swoosh said, not even in the same time zone mate. BOR90 can do 26kts in 9kts of wind, a formula board is maybe just planing.

CJW
NSW, 1731 posts
8 Feb 2010 10:14PM
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Also just a note for anyone interested both boats are on course for race 1 atm. Start has been postponed however, live streaming on americascup.com

Gestalt
QLD, 14969 posts
8 Feb 2010 9:18PM
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mate, i've taken on 18 footers at the lake and they can't match a formula board.

as for big tri's, go down to redland bay next time the winds 10-15 and watch the twin masted tri cruising around, dragged that off a few years back also .

you need to sail formula more.

even overseas the uk guys (guy cribb and mates) took on a 40' cat on slalom gear and beat it, trimarans have taken on formula kit and lost

can you point me to where the data is about 20 knots upwind and at what angle?

because i can guarantee you that a cat or a tri is not fast at tight angles to windward and has to foot. don't look at the apparent wind data, look at the true wind data. if these boats can point higher than a traditional mono as is being suggested then they truely have defied physics.

time will tell i guess once the data comes out.

here is what a formula board can do.

<10 knots = 60-65 deg
>10 knots = 55 deg
>20 knots = 49 deg

All these angles are usually at around 15-16 knots boardspeed

swoosh
QLD, 1929 posts
8 Feb 2010 9:28PM
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Gestalt said...

well here is the data for bor90,

http://sailmagazine.com/cupdate/we_predict_the_winner/

i don't know where you guys get your figures from?


well if your link is correct, bor90 does in 22kts boatspeed in 8kts of wind at 60 deg off the wind. while based of your experience a formula board is doing 15-16kts.

it has 16kts boat speed 60deg off the wind in only 6kts of wind. (i.e. equiv angle to formula board) except a formula board wouldn't be planing in 6kts.

heck in 10kts of wind, it has 16kts of boat speed 40deg off the wind. which is the same boatspeed as a formula board.. but pointing 15deg higher.

I don't see a formula board keeping up with that.

however, i don't doubt that a formula board would probably be close to and maybe faster than a lot of sailboats around a course, but in light winds BOR90 and Alinghi 5 are really in a league of their own.

mkseven
QLD, 2315 posts
8 Feb 2010 9:41PM
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Gestie you would get hosed by an experienced 18 footer crew, not some folk trying to get it all together.

Maybe you should put your money where your mouth is, but it is easier to sit behind a keyboard and preach about how fast you are

& just to clarify swoosh formula will plane in 6 knots, but yer ya pretty much right with the rest.

Gestalt
QLD, 14969 posts
8 Feb 2010 9:59PM
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MK, since i sail all the time and bump into you at the beach, i am hardly hiding behind a computer screen. keep it real.

i also think you will find the 18 foot cats at the lake are not "some folk trying to get it together" granted though, i am hardly sayin i can beat a quality skipper around a course. actually, i'm not saying "I" could beat any of the american cup boats around a course. hmm, i think from memory i am still waiting for you to crack a faster peak formula speed....... [}:)]

i am sticking to my guns that a formula board would give these boats a run for their money and only cost 1% of the budget.

p.s. swoosh, the formula figures are not vmg and the bor90 speeds are vmg,

only way to really know is to race them. so many other things come into play.

CJW
NSW, 1731 posts
8 Feb 2010 11:01PM
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Gestalt said...

mate, i've taken on 18 footers at the lake and they can't match a formula board.

as for big tri's, go down to redland bay next time the winds 10-15 and watch the twin masted tri cruising around, dragged that off a few years back also .

you need to sail formula more.

even overseas the uk guys (guy cribb and mates) took on a 40' cat on slalom gear and beat it, trimarans have taken on formula kit and lost

can you point me to where the data is about 20 knots upwind and at what angle?

because i can guarantee you that a cat or a tri is not fast at tight angles to windward and has to foot. don't look at the apparent wind data, look at the true wind data. if these boats can point higher than a traditional mono as is being suggested then they truely have defied physics.

time will tell i guess once the data comes out.

here is what a formula board can do.

<10 knots = 60-65 deg
>10 knots = 55 deg
>20 knots = 49 deg

All these angles are usually at around 15-16 knots boardspeed


Ok lets look at it. Lets call the windspeed 10kts, you say a formula board does 15kts boardspeed at 55 deg. A bit of trig and that gives us a VMG of 8.6kts. Now lets go to the chart on the link you provided. BOR90, 10kts of wind optimum angle 45degrees, VMG 15kts. That's 1.5 times faster. That's if a formula board can actually do 55 deg in 10kts, 15kts boardspeed....which I doubt.

Lets look at downwind. What's a formula board do downwind in 14kts? 23kts boardspeed maybe? and an angle of 135ish Deg (17kts VMG)? Well BOR90 does 26kts VMG in 14kts at an angle of 145 degrees(about 33kts boatspeed...14kts).

There are no two ways about it there is no way any other sailing craft in the world would get close to these boats. There's a reason the race course is 39miles long. Have you ever seen a 39mile formula course that's not a downwinder?


Edit: double quoted

Scully
WA, 412 posts
8 Feb 2010 8:02PM
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mkseven said...

Gestie you would get hosed by an experienced 18 footer crew, not some folk trying to get it all together.

Maybe you should put your money where your mouth is, but it is easier to sit behind a keyboard and preach about how fast you are

& just to clarify swoosh formula will plane in 6 knots, but yer ya pretty much right with the rest.


+1 mark, skill has got to count for something on this topic.
weekend cruise yachts at redland bay dont exactly fit in the Americas Cup catagory

Gestalt
QLD, 14969 posts
8 Feb 2010 10:16PM
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ok, cjw,

i'll humbly accept defeat, you have proven it solidly, good use of maths there.

you other guys are all hot air, money where your mouth is, can do 20 knots upwind....lol

CJW said...

Gestalt said...

mate, i've taken on 18 footers at the lake and they can't match a formula board.

as for big tri's, go down to redland bay next time the winds 10-15 and watch the twin masted tri cruising around, dragged that off a few years back also .

you need to sail formula more.

even overseas the uk guys (guy cribb and mates) took on a 40' cat on slalom gear and beat it, trimarans have taken on formula kit and lost

can you point me to where the data is about 20 knots upwind and at what angle?

because i can guarantee you that a cat or a tri is not fast at tight angles to windward and has to foot. don't look at the apparent wind data, look at the true wind data. if these boats can point higher than a traditional mono as is being suggested then they truely have defied physics.

time will tell i guess once the data comes out.

here is what a formula board can do.

<10 knots = 60-65 deg
>10 knots = 55 deg
>20 knots = 49 deg

All these angles are usually at around 15-16 knots boardspeed


Ok lets look at it. Lets call the windspeed 10kts, you say a formula board does 15kts boardspeed at 55 deg. A bit of trig and that gives us a VMG of 8.6kts. Now lets go to the chart on the link you provided. BOR90, 10kts of wind optimum angle 45degrees, VMG 15kts. That's 1.5 times faster. That's if a formula board can actually do 55 deg in 10kts, 15kts boardspeed....which I doubt.

Lets look at downwind. What's a formula board do downwind in 14kts? 23kts boardspeed maybe? and an angle of 135ish Deg (17kts VMG)? Well BOR90 does 26kts VMG in 14kts at an angle of 145 degrees(about 33kts boatspeed...14kts).

There are no two ways about it there is no way any other sailing craft in the world would get close to these boats. There's a reason the race course is 39miles long. Have you ever seen a 39mile formula course that's not a downwinder?


Edit: double quoted




mkseven
QLD, 2315 posts
8 Feb 2010 10:21PM
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Gestie stop talking s***. I do see you sail occasionally, when you not talking garbage on the beach. But you never come out to play on your amazing slalom board. You're always blasting on a freestyle/wave/freeride board attempting vulcan's and re-entry's off the lip... in the bay

swoosh
QLD, 1929 posts
8 Feb 2010 10:21PM
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Gestalt said...
p.s. swoosh, the formula figures are not vmg and the bor90 speeds are vmg,



whooops my bad, but if its VMG then bor90 is so much faster its not even near close.

also, formula can plane in 6kts? dang maybe i need to steal some formula kit

nothing like a good debate to really get a thread moving eh

CJW
NSW, 1731 posts
8 Feb 2010 11:25PM
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Gestalt said...

ok, cjw,

i'll humbly accept defeat, you have proven it solidly, good use of maths there.

you other guys are all hot air, money where your mouth is, can do 20 knots upwind....lol


Hehe :) In Swoosh's defence there was a table going around that quoted BOR90 could do 26kts upwind in 9kts of wind, this is boatspeed obviously. Going off the charts again in 10kts, 45 deg angle BOR90 is doing 22kts boatspeed. That's pretty close to the figures :)

Gestalt
QLD, 14969 posts
8 Feb 2010 10:47PM
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mkseven said...

Gestie stop talking s***. I do see you sail occasionally, when you not talking garbage on the beach but you never come out to play on your amazing slalom board. You're always blasting on a freestyle/wave/freeride board attempting vulcan's and re-entry's off the lip... in the bay


haha, that's cause i saw the light mate!

so what are you having a go at here, is it me, or is it my boards, or both maybe.
maybe next it will be the sails i use or even the fins i choose.

Gestalt
QLD, 14969 posts
8 Feb 2010 10:51PM
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my 20 knots upwind speed comment was a response to bc.


CJW said...

Gestalt said...

ok, cjw,

i'll humbly accept defeat, you have proven it solidly, good use of maths there.

you other guys are all hot air, money where your mouth is, can do 20 knots upwind....lol


Hehe :) In Swoosh's defence there was a table going around that quoted BOR90 could do 26kts upwind in 9kts of wind, this is boatspeed obviously. Going off the charts again in 10kts, 45 deg angle BOR90 is doing 22kts boatspeed. That's pretty close to the figures :)



sausage
QLD, 4874 posts
9 Feb 2010 12:11AM
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^^^^^^^^^ Did I miss something? Hey I was thinking....do you reckon a sailboard would beat these boats racing? (just stirring )

Racing cancelled for the day due to light wind - I guess they couldn't point it upwind (just stirring again)

Rescheduled to Wednesday.

PS - didn't realise both these boats pump water into hulls for ballast when going upwind (at what angle they can sail into the wind I'm not sure - and again) and dump it for downwind or broader reaching.



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"What you can do with unlimited money: Americas Cup" started by yoyo