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Brand changes in the big guns

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Created by izaak > 9 months ago, 21 Dec 2011
barn
WA, 2960 posts
23 Dec 2011 10:32AM
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Hahah lol at the backlash over the .7 weights.. Bloody internet heros!!.. The obvious solution for getting accurate weights is to get a set of calibrated scales to the factory! I'm sure this will not blow any R&D budgets..

stehsegler said...
Speaking of printing technique. I want to see a manufacturer release a custom range where I can print my own designs. How awesome would that be.



Realistically this wouldn't happen 'cause the average punter can't design sh!t and it'll just make the sails look pants..



Meanwhile back to the thread... Saw something on facebook about Brawzinho leaving Fanatic/North to Quartro/Goya... So lock that in 100% +/- 100%

Rob11
240 posts
23 Dec 2011 12:45PM
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KA360 said...
Pryde simply uses thicker/heavier materials because they don't want warranty claims.Sails being returned cost them money and their shareholders want profit.
Wasn't JP using black tinted fibreglass which the customers just presumed was carbon?do they still?


You've never used a NP sail have you? Apart from being one of the most expensive and less durable I cant find anything else.

Windsurf0709
VIC, 136 posts
23 Dec 2011 3:52PM
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How long has Polakow been using Neil Pryde?

Watching a video the other day he said if he puts on any weight at all the whole performance of his board is shot to pieces.

So, knowing he's such a perfectionist why would he use Pryde if they were inferior? Or, does he have custom made 'light weight' sails or just needs bullet proof (heavy) sails as he sails in crazy places?

KA360
NSW, 803 posts
23 Dec 2011 4:30PM
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You've never used a NP sail have you? Apart from being one of the most expensive and less durable I cant find anything else.


I (and also Barney)have had dozens of NP's. I still regularly try NP's and other brands.I have access to any/all equipment on the market . While traveling OS and using all the weight allowance carrying Alex's gear I even end up renting gear. So I even end up paying to use NP rigs( generally having cheap masts so not good examples). I don't hate NP's but I do prefer a different feel.
JP's -I do think Australia in the name is a bit rich,even false advertising.It no longer has any connection to Australia-maybe its made from local and imported ingredients.
and Yes I have owned a JP -at least 35 of them in the last 10 years

qldnacra
QLD, 455 posts
23 Dec 2011 5:53PM
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I think it's quite funny that people go on so much about the weight of the sail. Just buy the brand you like the feel or look of or that your local shop sells so it's convenient and they are willing to trade back so you can update without totally blowing the budget. I think there would be more to gain by getting fit and losing some weight. I think the performance gains would be greater than if you had a sail that was a whole 100g lighter regardless of the brand.

barn
WA, 2960 posts
23 Dec 2011 7:09PM
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qldnacra said...

I think it's quite funny that people go on so much about the weight of the sail. Just buy the brand you like the feel or look of or that your local shop sells so it's convenient and they are willing to trade back so you can update without totally blowing the budget. I think there would be more to gain by getting fit and losing some weight. I think the performance gains would be greater than if you had a sail that was a whole 100g heavier regardless of the brand.


Obviously never sailed light gear!.. A bit of weight around the belly has zero swing weight, a bit of weight at the top of the sail, 4m in the air, is not negligible.. Also, some of us don't have any body weight to loose, or fitness to gain..

Unbelievable advantages come when you can knock of a few grams on every piece of kit, a kilo from the sail, half a kilo on the boom and mast, more on the extension and soon you've lost at least 30% of the rig weight..

Slowly the rest of the sail makers are realising that this is the direction the sport is going, unfortunate for the bottom line, because light materials are expensive.. (cut's into your 'premium' charge)

----

And to answer another question, JP would rarely use a production sails, and he probably sails a JP five times a year. And while I'm breaking hearts, Santa is not real either..

gregc
VIC, 1299 posts
23 Dec 2011 10:46PM
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Im really surprised that anyone thinks that a pro sails a production board, as a surfer the idea of a professional using an off the rack board from a shaper that you and I could access is laughable. Truth is that normal human beings are incapable of surfing a pro level board. Why is it as sailors we seem to think that we can jump on a board that a professional athlete uses and get the most out of it. JP may not sail a production board, neither would a majority of pros.

qldnacra
QLD, 455 posts
23 Dec 2011 10:45PM
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barn said...

qldnacra said...

I think it's quite funny that people go on so much about the weight of the sail. Just buy the brand you like the feel or look of or that your local shop sells so it's convenient and they are willing to trade back so you can update without totally blowing the budget. I think there would be more to gain by getting fit and losing some weight. I think the performance gains would be greater than if you had a sail that was a whole 100g heavier regardless of the brand.


Obviously never sailed light gear!.. A bit of weight around the belly has zero swing weight, a bit of weight at the top of the sail, 4m in the air, is not negligible.. Also, some of us don't have any body weight to loose, or fitness to gain..

Unbelievable advantages come when you can knock of a few grams on every piece of kit, a kilo from the sail, half a kilo on the boom and mast, more on the extension and soon you've lost at least 30% of the rig weight..

Slowly the rest of the sail makers are realising that this is the direction the sport is going, unfortunate for the bottom line, because light materials are expensive.. (cut's into your 'premium' charge)

----

And to answer another question, JP would rarely use a production sails, and he probably sails a JP five times a year. And while I'm breaking hearts, Santa is not real either..




I knew i would probably cop a bit of flack for this one. I have sailed on light gear and like it heaps better than using my 6.7 Hellcat but when the wind is light what choice do i have. Use bigger gear or not sail. I'll take the bigger gear. I also have a 2012 4.2 Severne Gator and a few other sails including a 2012 5.7 Firefly which feels pretty light too for it's size. I'm as guilty as the next person for wanting the latest and lightest but it's not my first criteria as much as purpose or intended use of the sail. I recently changed my 2011 5.5 Fusion over for the Firefly and even though it would possibly weight maybe almost the same and it's a bigger sail it feels lighter to sail. I've got nothing to base this on but i suspect that where the weight is in the sail and the design of the sail have a lot to do with how heavy a sail feels in your hands while sailing. It sort of seems like motorbikes to me in a way. If the centre of gravity is high up the bike feels heavy and cumbersome to ride even though it may physically weigh less on a set of scales than another bike with a lower centre of gravity that weighs a little more.
I don't have weight to lose either i'm only 67kg and i'm not judging people that are heavier just saying that i think there is performance to be gained and possibly bigger gains in other places as well.

gregc
VIC, 1299 posts
24 Dec 2011 12:00AM
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lol 67kg, I have a thigh that weighs more than you lol.

DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
24 Dec 2011 12:30AM
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BenKirk said...

barn said...Just look at their Bicycle frame.


What about the bike? You're right about the EXCELLENT NP marketing department




Well i dont care what everyone else thinks, I'm sold and I will have two of what ever it is she is selling!

gregc
VIC, 1299 posts
24 Dec 2011 1:31AM
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Merry Christmas DrJ.

174
NSW, 190 posts
24 Dec 2011 8:42AM
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gregc said...

Im really surprised that anyone thinks that a pro sails a production board


Plenty of pros have won events (and world champs) on production wave boards - obviously not so much at hookipa when they're doing R&D. And all the freestyles and slalom guys are on production boards per the rules.

choco
SA, 4187 posts
24 Dec 2011 11:53AM
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174 said...

gregc said...

Im really surprised that anyone thinks that a pro sails a production board


Plenty of pros have won events (and world champs) on production wave boards - obviously not so much at hookipa when they're doing R&D. And all the freestyles and slalom guys are on production boards per the rules.




True but some of the pro riders get to choose their production boards ie they might checkout 10 or so boards until they find one that is close to specs, public gets whats delivered.

gregc
VIC, 1299 posts
24 Dec 2011 4:08PM
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A heap of boards that you see in all contests are custom boards with a production board paint job so punters think they are getting what the pros ride. I rode a pros surfboard once and a normal human being simply couldn't get much out of that board, matter of fact us normal folk would call it a pig and throw it at the shaper if he gave it to us.

Business is simple you make stuff for the masses so you sell a lot, if you sell for the 0.05% that are elite or gifted you won't last long as a business.

AUS4
NSW, 1296 posts
24 Dec 2011 5:06PM
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You are still living in the 80s Greg.

gregc said...

A heap of boards that you see in all contests are custom boards with a production board paint job so punters think they are getting what the pros ride. I rode a pros surfboard once and a normal human being simply couldn't get much out of that board, matter of fact us normal folk would call it a pig and throw it at the shaper if he gave it to us.

Business is simple you make stuff for the masses so you sell a lot, if you sell for the 0.05% that are elite or gifted you won't last long as a business.


gregc
VIC, 1299 posts
24 Dec 2011 6:31PM
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hardly think so. So you are suggesting that everyday sailors/surfers/kiters etc etc etc can step on any board that is left around an elite contest and get the most out of it? Why would sailboarding be any different to any other sport and normal everyday weekend warriors posses the all the talents of an elite athlete? Or are you suggesting that the business principles of selling stuff remarkably change when applied to sailboarding? Either way I think your logic is flawed.

AUS4
NSW, 1296 posts
26 Dec 2011 8:52AM
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Select to expand quote
I will say it again you are living in the 80s , that doesnt happen any more. Team guys may get a board which is .3 of a kilo lighter on a 9 kilo board, they are not made especially for them, they may have a pick from a few boards thats all, no different construction.
Dont create trouble when you dont know what your talking about. And by the way I do know what I am talking about.



You are still living in the 80s Greg.
gregc said...

A heap of boards that you see in all contests are custom boards with a production board paint job so punters think they are getting what the pros ride. I rode a pros surfboard once and a normal human being simply couldn't get much out of that board, matter of fact us normal folk would call it a pig and throw it at the shaper if he gave it to us.

Business is simple you make stuff for the masses so you sell a lot, if you sell for the 0.05% that are elite or gifted you won't last long as a business.





barn
WA, 2960 posts
26 Dec 2011 8:20AM
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The truth lies somewhere between each argument..

Loads of pros use productions, and loads use customs.. There is an obvious push from board manufacturers for their team riders to sail productions as it gives them the argument that 'our Pros use the same gear you have'. And it's also an easy option as there is nothing wrong with productions, break one get an identical replacement.


The freestyle guys use productions because they are the rules.. Before the rules changed most were on production anyway, except Gollito who was using a speed board.. (see the change in the skate when the rules changed)

So yes Gregc has just walked out of a Jumanji game, but Aus4 is wrong if he thinks Polakow is not sailing a Quartro..


CJW
NSW, 1731 posts
26 Dec 2011 2:03PM
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AUS4 said...

I will say it again you are living in the 80s , that doesnt happen any more. Team guys may get a board which is .3 of a kilo lighter on a 9 kilo board, they are not made especially for them, they may have a pick from a few boards thats all, no different construction.
Dont create trouble when you dont know what your talking about. And by the way I do know what I am talking about.


I think Gregc is probably referring mostly to wave boards where custom boards painted up as production gear are a dime a dozen. As barn said, not common in the FS, slalom, Formula classes these days as the rules changed. If you think people like Kauli etal ride production boards most of the time you are living in a fastasy, have a look at the actual boards next time. I don't think Kauli has ridden a board longer than 220cm for years....you can't buy one that short from JP. I'm sure there is a push for more production gear to be used and no doubt some pros use exclusively production gear, but the dudes pushing the envelope, particularly those living on Maui with access to quattro ride some pretty radical stuff.



AUS4
NSW, 1296 posts
26 Dec 2011 3:49PM
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I will go along with that, wave boards have never been production boards as they change the shapes to often for a production run.

CJW said...

AUS4 said...

I will say it again you are living in the 80s , that doesnt happen any more. Team guys may get a board which is .3 of a kilo lighter on a 9 kilo board, they are not made especially for them, they may have a pick from a few boards thats all, no different construction.
Dont create trouble when you dont know what your talking about. And by the way I do know what I am talking about.


I think Gregc is probably referring mostly to wave boards where custom boards painted up as production gear are a dime a dozen. As barn said, not common in the FS, slalom, Formula classes these days as the rules changed. If you think people like Kauli etal ride production boards most of the time you are living in a fastasy, have a look at the actual boards next time. I don't think Kauli has ridden a board longer than 220cm for years....you can't buy one that short from JP. I'm sure there is a push for more production gear to be used and no doubt some pros use exclusively production gear, but the dudes pushing the envelope, particularly those living on Maui with access to quattro ride some pretty radical stuff.






stehsegler
WA, 3580 posts
26 Dec 2011 2:06PM
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Wave boards... Yes, some pros with ride customs... Sail? Nope... 99% of pro will ride stock standard production gear.

In terms of boards if heard through the grape vine that a number of companies are now pushing their sponsored riders to only production gear. And let's face it its not like our sport is like say tennis where the sponsored person can make a lot of demands. Most of them are happy to even get sponsorship.

Dezza
NSW, 956 posts
26 Dec 2011 10:57PM
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I don't hear any of this stuff on the beach, why do you all get on-line to vent your thoughts?

world gone mad, if you like to windsurf just do it, who cares about the brand

Mobydisc
NSW, 9029 posts
26 Dec 2011 11:35PM
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Dezza said...

I don't hear any of this stuff on the beach, why do you all get on-line to vent your thoughts?

world gone mad, if you like to windsurf just do it, who cares about the brand



Yeah true but people are home with nothing much to do besides argue online. It passes the time. While on the beach its a different story. Not sure why GregC was so red thumbed. It seems reasonable enough to believe that many professional windsurfers are using custom gear that is painted to resemble production gear. Not so much in the racing disciplines but definitely in the waves.





barn
WA, 2960 posts
26 Dec 2011 9:13PM
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Dezza said...

I don't hear any of this stuff on the beach, why do you all get on-line to vent your thoughts?

world gone mad, if you like to windsurf just do it, who cares about the brand


But, why did you get online and vent this thought?

Windsurfing is not about windsurfing, it's about talking about windsurfing.. Pretty simple.

----

GregC was red thumbed cause he is condescending and always applies things he thinks he knows about surfing to things he thinks he knows about windsurfing.. Like that time he recommended a Sup as an alternative to a Go.. Or in this thread where he said it was 'laughable' that people think they could sail the same board as a pro, such as Phillip Koster and Francisco Goya..

joe windsurf
1482 posts
26 Dec 2011 10:28PM
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can see this post went all over the place

thought it was about "Brand changes in the big guns"

and not all that other "crappolla"

happy holidays y'all

col5555
WA, 386 posts
5 Jan 2012 9:22PM
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Peter Voltwater now with Avanti sails.

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8354 posts
6 Jan 2012 3:56PM
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Phil27 said...

I don't think you can put nickleback and gaypryde in the same bracket. Nicklecrack are WAY gayer like unprotected bum se x gay, with loads of gays...with aids


Whats wrong with Nickleback?

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8354 posts
6 Jan 2012 3:58PM
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barn said...

Where did all the Gay posts go? I put a lot of effort into those!!

I note, it's OK to relentlessly call Kitesurfers Gay, and also Freestyle windsurfing is flaming Gay. Boardshorts over wetsuit? TOTALLY GAY.. But the line is crossed when Gay in used in an unintelligent play on words to describe peeps fav brand..... You're labeled a Bigot..

Anywho..

Steven Van-Dinky-Donk is the Freestyle Champ, it was his second year on the tour.. He used to sail F2 and had a board called the Rodeo which he made his own, this is a popular board as it was a dedicated freestyle, unlike the freeride boards Jp sell..

We all asked him years ago why he wasn't taking the Big Bucks (relatively) from a big brand, and he said he liked the Rodeo, and he liked the people at F2.. They supported him when he was nobody..

If there is an underground scene in windsurfing, it's freestyle.. Old people Speed sail, those that are lucky wave sail, but freestyle is where it's at..

NilPryde, don't care about freestyle, because freestyle sailors don't buy Pryde.. It's simply Pryde cashing in on the credibility of Steven, the first 'white guy' to win..

And sure NP put more money back into the sport than others, that's because the others don't have any money spare.. NP has the fanbois, they get the money, and buy the riders, to brainwash the fanbois.. It's full corporate, all strategy, to make cash.. The other brands don't know much about making money, they just do it because windsurfing is fun..

McDonalds sponsor sports carnivals, they still sell garbage..


Now thats something i do agree on..

nzloopy
14 posts
6 Jan 2012 4:15PM
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Having been on pryde gear for the last 5 years, having had 2 X9 masts replaced under warranty as well as 3 X9 booms due to rusty boom clamp bolts, boom arms splitting in two, boom clips splitting in two due to rusty metal pin and an RSR Evo 2 replacement due 3 in the quiver suffering from rusty cam pins, rusty cam screws, rusty clew grommet as well as rusty tack pulleys replaced on wave sails and 3 bent rdm basses in the last 6 months, harness hook webbing pulling off the harness during racing when the harness was only 6 months old and finding there was only one line of sticking holding it together, I am now officially over paying top dollar for what is billed as premium high performance gear. Severne and North are on the shortlist for my next race sail purchase.

Waiting4wind
NSW, 1871 posts
6 Jan 2012 7:22PM
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DrJ said...

BenKirk said...

barn said...Just look at their Bicycle frame.


What about the bike? You're right about the EXCELLENT NP marketing department




Well i dont care what everyone else thinks, I'm sold and I will have two of what ever it is she is selling!


Jenna must be very concerned about weight of equipment, which must be why she's had her wetsuit painted on! With added benefit that it won't absorb any water.



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"Brand changes in the big guns" started by izaak